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#51 2012-01-17 18:08:13

natura
Member
From: Australia
Registered: 2008-04-22
Posts: 4325
Website

Re: What is patience?

Tom wrote:

So where shall we begin to deal adequately and intelligently with this question of patience?

Shouldn’t the beginning be also the end, accordingly to Krishnamurti?
Shouldn’t the rightly put question contain the answer?

Tom wrote:

But we're talking about a quality of the mind that perhaps doesn't resist whatever is passing through it, a mind that is happy to wait for clarity.

Honestly, Tom, if we’re really talking about that quality of that very special kind of mind, ‘waiting’ would be the last thing my mind would be happy about.
That quality use to be a pretty hard action, actually.

So, all verbal definitions naturally contain contradictions in themselves, because, as you’ve righteously noticed, they are nothing but word’s replacements; some kind of verbal conjuring. We can see it clearly enough without necessity to go beyond the thought.
The contradiction in our case is patience as action and waiting as doing nothing – both are included in context.
In fact, that’s already an impasse for any further verbal exploration of this question. Instead of exploration, it’s just a vast field for conjuring with words.

Tom wrote:

You see, I've put this question about patience because I have a sense that it is one way in which we can explore this bigger question of psychological time, of waiting for clarity, certainty or insight.

…and taking those premises above, you have already entranced that field including such fuzzy terms as ‘psychological time’, ‘clarity’ etc., etc. …

Welcome, and Farewell to endless circles, Tom.
No doubt, you will find a good, active team for that journey.

As for me, thanks for invitation, sorry, I’m not in.
I was pretty sick from that carousel and circus long ago.


γνῶθι σεαυτόν (nosce te ipsum)

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#52 2012-01-17 18:23:20

snguyen
Member
Registered: 2009-04-15
Posts: 4924

Re: What is patience?

natura wrote:

Tom wrote:

So where shall we begin to deal adequately and intelligently with this question of patience?

Shouldn’t the rightly put question contain the answer?

Observe it carefully: are you in touch with the problem itself, or are you occupied and consumed with question and answer about it?

To a mind that is highly skilled at observing facts directly, the facts come to it easily and directly, bypassing any question or answer or any other abstract about it. The fact acts and liberates. There is no time.

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#53 2012-01-17 18:33:21

natura
Member
From: Australia
Registered: 2008-04-22
Posts: 4325
Website

Re: What is patience?

snguyen wrote:

natura wrote:

Tom wrote:

So where shall we begin to deal adequately and intelligently with this question of patience?

Shouldn’t the rightly put question contain the answer?

Observe it carefully: are you in touch with the problem itself, or are you occupied and consumed with question and answer about it?

To a mind that is highly skilled at observing facts directly, the facts come to it easily and directly, bypassing any question or answer or any other abstract about it. The fact acts and liberates. There is no time.

The expression ‘a mind that is highly skilled at observing facts directly’ might be very questionable, snguyen.

The rest is beautuful

Last edited by natura (2012-01-17 18:35:14)


γνῶθι σεαυτόν (nosce te ipsum)

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#54 2012-01-18 06:20:10

awareness
Banned
Registered: 2011-09-03
Posts: 4038

Re: What is patience?

natura wrote:

Tom wrote:

So where shall we begin to deal adequately and intelligently with this question of patience?

Shouldn’t the beginning be also the end, accordingly to Krishnamurti?
Shouldn’t the rightly put question contain the answer?

Tom wrote:

But we're talking about a quality of the mind that perhaps doesn't resist whatever is passing through it, a mind that is happy to wait for clarity.

Honestly, Tom, if we’re really talking about that quality of that very special kind of mind, ‘waiting’ would be the last thing my mind would be happy about.
That quality use to be a pretty hard action, actually.

So, all verbal definitions naturally contain contradictions in themselves, because, as you’ve righteously noticed, they are nothing but word’s replacements; some kind of verbal conjuring. We can see it clearly enough without necessity to go beyond the thought.
The contradiction in our case is patience as action and waiting as doing nothing – both are included in context.
In fact, that’s already an impasse for any further verbal exploration of this question. Instead of exploration, it’s just a vast field for conjuring with words.

Tom wrote:

You see, I've put this question about patience because I have a sense that it is one way in which we can explore this bigger question of psychological time, of waiting for clarity, certainty or insight.

…and taking those premises above, you have already entranced that field including such fuzzy terms as ‘psychological time’, ‘clarity’ etc., etc. …

Welcome, and Farewell to endless circles, Tom.
No doubt, you will find a good, active team for that journey.

As for me, thanks for invitation, sorry, I’m not in.
I was pretty sick from that carousel and circus long ago.

quit funny this mind, which is happy to wait for clarity;-)

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#55 2012-01-18 07:36:03

Eden
Member
From: Hawaii
Registered: 2009-05-08
Posts: 5508

Re: What is patience?

Tom wrote:

That's really what I've been leading up to.

You mean you have been asking leading questions?  Shocking!  I can hardly believe it!

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#56 2012-01-18 11:40:30

awareness
Banned
Registered: 2011-09-03
Posts: 4038

Re: What is patience?

may be that in tom fragments of the "what" are still working:-)

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#57 2012-01-18 13:14:23

Tom
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2010-08-12
Posts: 2247

Re: What is patience?

natura wrote:

Tom wrote:

So where shall we begin to deal adequately and intelligently with this question of patience?

Shouldn’t the rightly put question contain the answer?

That's why I want to open up the question, dig into it and see what it reveals. It's not a question about some abstraction called 'patience'; it's really a question about ourselves, about we what we are doing as we communicate with one another. Most of us are very quick to put up a barrier, usually an ideological barrier, which effectively says to the other person, 'I know more about this than you do,' or the converse, which is, 'I don't know enough about this - you tell me about it.' But at the moment, basically, there is no 'this', there is no subject matter as a background of knowledge from which we might converse. It doesn't stop people making that assumption, however. They hear one word and they are off, out of the blocks and away with it, with very little regard for whomever else might want to travel along with them.

As we said earlier - I said it in this thread; Joe said it in the last thread - we are all in the same boat here. We've all got the same dodgy tools of language. We are all conditioned human beings. We're all living on the same earth. So the question, as tentative or as forceful as it is, it always comes back to how you and I deal with it.

Last edited by Tom (2012-01-18 13:25:12)

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#58 2012-01-18 14:52:18

tree
Member
Registered: 2009-01-02
Posts: 12739

Re: What is patience?

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT-Nvzg9AcGO6WY_4vK8nWrbo6Ju1Es8uGzLrcp8NE0XtZKtHRH1A

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#59 2012-01-18 14:52:53

snguyen
Member
Registered: 2009-04-15
Posts: 4924

Re: What is patience?

So the question is about us. My question is, why haven’t we changed after all these long explorations into almost everything, in here and especially in life? We also have come to the point where we said we did not know. We also said that maybe more was not needed and what was needed was the right one step into the beginning of living in truth. Now, if all of what we have done truly have an actuality in them, meaning we are actually what we said and been saying and not just pretending with a bunch of mere knowledge, and since we are that actuality and they don’t just vanish as ideas or lies, then we don’t have to waste more time and energy to go through all that again. Apparently what we know hasn’t changed us radically because the knowing is the continuity of the past, and we seem to be fooled into believing we need to inquire until we are at the graveyard. Inquiry is for the sake of inquiry, a confused half truth borrowed blatantly halfway from K?

I say that if we do see the truths in what we have been exploring into, the change is there, and it is seeing the false as the false and the false does not continue. The road travels into what is less and less knowing. You don’t know the false anymore and it means there is no point to go back to it. Make sure we are clear about that.

Now, look at the presence, not the presence that is full of the past looking. What is this presence if it is not pure facts? To see facts, the mind must be very quiet, sensitive. The moment thought comes along it is not factual. And to live with facts is the beginning of transformation, of purely clear perception and wisdom comes from there. The teaching from facts can be translated into thought and the “translator” being aware that the word is not the thing, still finds the right words to communicate the energy, the integrity, and the truths.

I don’t want any lie, fallacy, pretention, mere knowledge, and so my question is, can we look at facts and inquire strictly from facts alone?

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#60 2012-01-18 15:56:36

hermann
Member
Registered: 2008-04-28
Posts: 8293

Re: What is patience?

Tom wrote:

So have we the patience to go into the question? Do we have the patience to follow any question right through to the very end? That's really what I've been leading up to. Knowing that we are not dealing with things we can glean from the experts; knowing that we are on our own in this; knowing that we are all in the same boat, on the same footing - do we have the patience for it?

Or the question might be: Can I be that patience?  Can I sift out all the other qualities that I have acquired in time, so that nothing remains beyond that quality of patience?  Or seriousness?  For then there may be no difference between patience and seriousness.  K would sometimes ask: How much do you want it?, or what will you pay for it? Can I become that question, or such a question?

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#61 2012-01-18 15:58:35

MF
Member
Registered: 2009-12-28
Posts: 198

Re: What is patience?

snguyen wrote:

So the question is about us. My question is, why haven’t we changed after all these long explorations into almost everything, in here and especially in life? We also have come to the point where we said we did not know. We also said that maybe more was not needed and what was needed was the right one step into the beginning of living in truth. Now, if all of what we have done truly have an actuality in them, meaning we are actually what we said and been saying and not just pretending with a bunch of mere knowledge, and since we are that actuality and they don’t just vanish as ideas or lies, then we don’t have to waste more time and energy to go through all that again. Apparently what we know hasn’t changed us radically because the knowing is the continuity of the past, and we seem to be fooled into believing we need to inquire until we are at the graveyard. Inquiry is for the sake of inquiry, a confused half truth borrowed blatantly halfway from K?

I say that if we do see the truths in what we have been exploring into, the change is there, and it is seeing the false as the false and the false does not continue. The road travels into what is less and less knowing. You don’t know the false anymore and it means there is no point to go back to it. Make sure we are clear about that.

Now, look at the presence, not the presence that is full of the past looking. What is this presence if it is not pure facts? To see facts, the mind must be very quiet, sensitive. The moment thought comes along it is not factual. And to live with facts is the beginning of transformation, of purely clear perception and wisdom comes from there. The teaching from facts can be translated into thought and the “translator” being aware that the word is not the thing, still finds the right words to communicate the energy, the integrity, and the truths.

I don’t want any lie, fallacy, pretention, mere knowledge, and so my question is, can we look at facts and inquire strictly from facts alone?

Just wonderful.

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#62 2012-01-18 17:21:09

Tom
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2010-08-12
Posts: 2247

Re: What is patience?

snguyen wrote:

So the question is about us. ... can we look at facts and inquire strictly from facts alone?

We are conditioned. Is this a fact?

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#63 2012-01-18 17:27:18

Tom
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2010-08-12
Posts: 2247

Re: What is patience?

hermann wrote:

Or the question might be: Can I be that patience? Can I sift out all the other qualities that I have acquired in time, so that nothing remains beyond that quality of patience? Or seriousness? For then there may be no difference between patience and seriousness. K would sometimes ask: How much do you want it?, or what will you pay for it? Can I become that question, or such a question?

Are you saying that you want to become something else different from what you are now?

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#64 2012-01-18 17:59:45

snguyen
Member
Registered: 2009-04-15
Posts: 4924

Re: What is patience?

Tom wrote:

snguyen wrote:

So the question is about us. ... can we look at facts and inquire strictly from facts alone?

We are conditioned. Is this a fact?

Yes it is. What is conditioning and how does it operate? Can I say that memory is a factor of conditioning? Yesterday I had that moment of happiness and today it shapes my expectation of the same happiness. If I did not have that memory, what would be the state of mind today? That is its operation.

Now, what is the fact of conditioning? How do I touch it? The fact of fear, for example, is an intense feeling where I can feel it directly without the word. But what is conditioning?

Last edited by snguyen (2012-01-18 18:09:58)

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#65 2012-01-18 18:45:07

tree
Member
Registered: 2009-01-02
Posts: 12739

Re: What is patience?

does it matter?

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#66 2012-01-18 18:58:18

snguyen
Member
Registered: 2009-04-15
Posts: 4924

Re: What is patience?

tree wrote:

does it matter?

Why don't you take a seat and see how you play the card game?

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#67 2012-01-18 18:59:55

snguyen
Member
Registered: 2009-04-15
Posts: 4924

Re: What is patience?

Magnetic wrote:

tree wrote:

Magnetic wrote:


empty sits? where did the poker players go?

http://www.chinatourguide.com/china_pho … _tibet.jpg

does it matter?

absolutely, asking the question points to that......

without asking such a question does the same thing... unless you like pictures.

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#68 2012-01-18 19:03:49

snguyen
Member
Registered: 2009-04-15
Posts: 4924

Re: What is patience?

Magnetic wrote:

snguyen wrote:

Magnetic wrote:

absolutely, asking the question points to that......

without asking such a question does the same thing... unless you like pictures.

what does the same thing?

That is, it does not matter.

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#69 2012-01-18 19:10:38

tree
Member
Registered: 2009-01-02
Posts: 12739

Re: What is patience?

snguyen wrote:

tree wrote:

Magnetic wrote:

empty sits? where did the poker players go?

http://www.chinatourguide.com/china_pho … _tibet.jpg

does it matter?

Why don't you take a seat and see how you play the card game?

http://brunkens.net/sitebuilder/images/Rainbow_in_the_sun_and_rain-573x339.jpg

the house always wins

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#70 2012-01-18 19:14:35

tree
Member
Registered: 2009-01-02
Posts: 12739

Re: What is patience?

(it's patient)

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#71 2012-01-18 19:53:24

hermann
Member
Registered: 2008-04-28
Posts: 8293

Re: What is patience?

Tom wrote:

hermann wrote:

Or the question might be: Can I be that patience? Can I sift out all the other qualities that I have acquired in time, so that nothing remains beyond that quality of patience? Or seriousness? For then there may be no difference between patience and seriousness. K would sometimes ask: How much do you want it?, or what will you pay for it? Can I become that question, or such a question?

Are you saying that you want to become something else different from what you are now?

There can be no becoming if we see becoming as a device of time.  But it may be possible to drop that device.  It may also be possible to drop the self.

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#72 2012-01-18 21:16:34

hermann
Member
Registered: 2008-04-28
Posts: 8293

Re: What is patience?

What would it mean 'to drop the self', and what would it mean 'to drop time'?  Is it just a linguistic sleight-of-hand?

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#73 2012-01-18 21:20:06

hermann
Member
Registered: 2008-04-28
Posts: 8293

Re: What is patience?

Can my life become a question?

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#74 2012-01-19 00:35:43

snguyen
Member
Registered: 2009-04-15
Posts: 4924

Re: What is patience?

hermann wrote:

Can my life become a question?

What do you mean???

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#75 2012-01-19 03:45:32

Eden
Member
From: Hawaii
Registered: 2009-05-08
Posts: 5508

Re: What is patience?

There comes a time in a mans life where you just need Jr Marley to break it all down...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9VQye6P8k0

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