KFA - Krishnamurti Foundation of America

Nevets · 2008-04-21 20:10:34

I was driving in my car today and it dawned on me something which Krishnamurti once said.

Basically it involves the 'seeing' of the whole complex structure of the mind (all of its components) in a single 'flash' almost like a revelation; because K points out that we are like a book and we can read 'it' page by page or see the whole thing in a single glance!!

Am I making myself clear? You see this whole process of inquiry, being methodical, proceeding step by step takes time....and really it seems we can talk ourselves blue in the face and nothing ever happens?

As a follow up question; what is it that really transforms us (and by the word transform I simply mean making that which is subjective; objective)? For example; some people are not even aware of their own prejudices, it is simply how they 'view' the world. And then you come to people who are aware of all of these inward conditional influences and it seems that simply becoming aware of that which is within ourselves is perhaps the only liberating factor.

So does awareness (which can be generated from inquiry/dialouge) bring about freedom, liberation? (And my those words; I mean free from the objects of our awareness)....I see my prejudice, I watch it closely in my day to day life....it becomes an object in my awareness....I transcend it (and by that word I mean overcome my exclusive identification with my prejudices or whatever it may be)

So could we direct this forum towards the relationship between time, transformation and the process of inquiry? What again are we getting at sirs?

rachMiel · 2008-04-21 20:44:37

> it seems we can talk ourselves blue in the face and nothing ever happens ... what is it that really transforms us

in buddhism, you balance theory (study of the eightfold path and sutras) with practice (meditation). one without the other is just half the story, like yin without yang.

likewise, krishnamurti enthusiasts need to balance theory (study of teachings, dialogue, inquiry) with practice ("what is" awareness); without awareness, inquiry can become pointless. without inquiry, awareness can become ungrounded. you need both for full transformation.

Last edited by rachMiel (2008-04-21 20:46:15)

Nevets · 2008-04-21 23:57:22

rachMiel wrote:
Likewise, krishnamurti enthusiasts need to balance theory (study of teachings, dialogue, inquiry) with practice ("what is" awareness); without awareness, inquiry can become pointless. without inquiry, awareness can become ungrounded. you need both for full transformation.

I think this is a very good point which anyone interested in K should contemplate. Yes, in Buddhism wisdom (prajna) coupled with meditation (sadhana) are crucial elements for awakening. Likewise, I believe in the tibetan buddhist tradition; monks spend over four hours a day in theoretical debate!

This leads me to my last observation which I think believe to be very important in ones life....namely correct view (which in tibetan buddhism is worked on through philosophical debate, ect.) but the think is we need a vehicle in which we can carry our realization of things and make sense of the world.

I know that anyone who has read K finds out that he is elaborates extensively on role of knowledge and the fact that knowledge does not liberate. However we can work very hard on the practical side of the street (establishing correct view) and at the same time put it in its correct place.

So could we go into the idea of 'putting everything in right place' ie. ORDER!?

It seems that some posts in this forum at large seem to simply put down statements as either being too theoretical or speculative......Im sorry, but it is just a natural form of communication and the furthering along of dialouge.

No one speaks from the voice of 100% truth; being honest with oneself and others leaves room for openess and thougtful critique...it is natural and healthy!

Nevets · 2008-04-22 00:11:51

Richard:

"So it could be... I am not sure of this... but it could be that there is a saturation point in which the mind... being exposed to a certain level of ruthless self-inquiry... begins to break its own rigid patterns... its own patterns of resistance... and it can begin to peer into itself... and begin to see its own limitations... its own operations."

Thanks Richard for your passionate and thoughtful response; it means alot! With regard to this personal statement, it reminded me of the idea of 'planting seeds'; for me this has been a very important metaphor in regards to K's work. I steeped myself in the written word of K and watched many of his videos for a period of time; and then gradually, naturally I have moved away from reading K and his work.

Personally, it has become much more meaningful to me once I have seen the flowing, the essence of what K was saying in my own day to day life...at a certain point the teachings MUST become a living experience! And then you see that K was using a particular language to talk about simple movements in our day to day experience, aspects which so many many people overlook.

When the essence of inquiry becomes a part of our normal life; then the idea of time in regards to growth seem to fall away bc then we are living in the present, in the moment so to speak!

It seems that our flight from the present 'Nowness' is one of the greatest hindrances not only to radical insight, but to the essense of freedom itself!

From here I would like to ask the question: What does it mean that freedom is in the very first step? Isnt a base rooted in freedom essential for meaningful inquiry?

Maybe we could move our energy with this!

peter · 2008-04-22 07:47:37

Exercising the brain is time also.

-Richard- · 2008-04-22 12:24:40

"From here I would like to ask the question: What does it mean that freedom is in the very first step? Isnt a base rooted in freedom essential for meaningful inquiry?"

I start from where I am right now... with my conflicts, misunderstandings, conditioning, beliefs, anger, frustration, pettyness, greediness, desires, ambitions and all the rest of my messy mind... I start with that... because that is "what is"... I don't tell myself that I should be better... I don't place the entire mess "over there" and tell myself that I am "over here"... I dont' try to "fix" it somehow... I insist on being honest my myself... I am that messy mind... from there I start.

So the first step is to recognize the mess... the first step is to be incredibly honest with myself... and there is freedom in the depth of that honesty.

Warmest Regards ~ Richard

Nevets · 2008-04-23 01:28:57

I totally feel what you mean Phil; it gets a bit tiring to say the least to hear K go off on such a 'negative' rant all the time!

I know there is some who would say you can't look at K just from the standpoint of his talks bc he actually lived life. But to that I would say that all the contact we have with K and his teachings comes through talks...and boy!!....they do carry a Mr.Yuckface attitude alot of the time....time to lighten up a bit if you ask me!

And we must remember that even so called enlightened people can still be dysfuctional in alot of ways....not to say that K was, but we must overcome our ideas of spiritual bypassing!

I thnk if K is going to have a flourishing in this post/modern~integral age of ours, then the essence of his teachings must be distilled from the man himself. I embrace wholeheartedly the essence of K's teachings....does that mean I have to be so serious and go on and on about conditioning...absolutley not!!

Two sides to a coin.....multiple perspectives in a human being!

-Richard- · 2008-04-23 03:01:22

Hi Nevets ~

"it gets a bit tiring to say the least to hear K go off on such a 'negative' rant all the time!"

I have managed to place myself at a distance to the "news"... to what is going on in the world. I don't watch television... I don't read newspapers. But... I have several friends that listen to everything... watch everything... one friend is 76... we are very close... he is a veteran of the Korean war... a marine... how he survived god only knows... shot several times and almost had his head blown off... each time he was wounded was life-threatening... and still the marines put him back to get shot again... and again.

He left that war with his eyes wide open... he was 16 when he went in... and his experience in that war turned him around... it awakened him. Jim told me once... with tears in his eyes... he was looking at a young Korean solder that had just been killed... he looked into his eyes... he was tired... all shook up from mental fatigue... from sleepless nights under fire... he bent down and looked into the young Korean boys eyes... and something happened to him... he saw himself... this was a real vision... he saw himself.

Jim's knowledge of what is going on in this world in incomparable... he makes it his business to know everything... on every level... science, politics, history, economics... you name it. And Jim and I talk a lot. And he tells me what is going on in this world.

We are in a terrible crises in this world... on every level. K saw that crises and tried to bring enormous sobriety to his teachings in order to help us to see what he saw... like my friend Jim... but K... and Jim... are not negative... I am not negative... Jim has a marvelous sense of humor... and so do I.

I laugh a great deal. I cry a great deal. I am in love with life... and... life has been very good to me... I am amazed that I am still alive.

So... can we just see things as they are without worrying about it... without agonizing about it... just see it... so that we can feel the suffering that is going on... on every level of life... the death of the animals, the death of the forests, the suffering and death brought on by wars, the death because of poverty, starvation, the suffering of the young who are on drugs of all kinds because they are the angels who suffer first, the canaries in the mines... can we see how good we have it in this country and be appreciative for that... can we look at everything and still find time to laugh and dance and sing and feel how good it is to be alive... can we see how lucky we are to be alive at a time in which the truth is being handed to us so easily... through K's teachings... and other masters.

I can sing and laugh and so can Jim... this forum for me is a chance to look at things carefully, sensitively, honestly, unflinchingly... that is all.

Warmest Regards ~ Richard

Last edited by -Richard- (2008-04-23 15:05:01)

Nevets · 2008-04-23 19:18:13

-Richard- wrote:
the death of the animals, the death of the forests.....

Hi Richard,

Thanks for sharing your story about Jim with us.....what a story indeed!!

The point I would like to go into here is the fact that we can take (at least some) multiple perspectives on any given situation. Sure we are killing off forests and many animals but we must remember that the planet has survived at least 5 mass extinctions....and in the context of the earth being some 4 billion years old, the time it takes to bounce back from a mass extinction is only like 3 months or something like that.

So perhaps humans won't make it this time around; perhaps we have taken too big a piece out of the cosmic pie...we will just have to see!!

-Richard- wrote:
I can sing and laugh and so can Jim... this forum for me is a chance to look at things carefully, sensitively, honestly, unflinchingly... that is all.

Yes indeed; a thoughtful approach! I guess when we present facts...and sometimes the truth does hurt, that it can appear negative or morose.....war, famine, extinction...I don't blame you for not wanting to read the papers...very negative indeed!

So can we see anything 100% clearly?...Does the truth simply present itself to us or does it arise within a particular context and then molded by cultural influence, personal environment, ect, come to us in a 'conditioned' manner?

I wonder if there is direct perception?

wem · 2008-04-23 21:06:19

Nevets wrote:
I thnk if K is going to have a flourishing in this post/modern~integral age of ours, then the essence of his teachings must be distilled from the man himself.

Nevets,

Are you suggesting that the teachings can exist separate from Krishnamurti?

wem

KFA - Krishnamurti Foundation of America

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#1 2008-04-21 20:10:34

>>>TIME<<< Psychological Enemy to Man

#2 2008-04-21 20:44:37

Re: >>>TIME<<< Psychological Enemy to Man

#3 2008-04-21 23:57:22

Re: >>>TIME<<< Psychological Enemy to Man

rachMiel wrote:

#4 2008-04-22 00:11:51

Re: >>>TIME<<< Psychological Enemy to Man

#5 2008-04-22 07:47:37

Re: >>>TIME<<< Psychological Enemy to Man

#6 2008-04-22 12:24:40

Re: >>>TIME<<< Psychological Enemy to Man

#7 2008-04-23 01:28:57

Re: >>>TIME<<< Psychological Enemy to Man

#8 2008-04-23 03:01:22

Re: >>>TIME<<< Psychological Enemy to Man

#9 2008-04-23 19:18:13

Re: >>>TIME<<< Psychological Enemy to Man

-Richard- wrote:

-Richard- wrote:

#10 2008-04-23 21:06:19

Re: >>>TIME<<< Psychological Enemy to Man

Nevets wrote:

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