KFA - Krishnamurti Foundation of America

awareness wrote:

bruce sean wrote:

You didn't answer my question, though: were you alone, or were you not? Physically, I mean.

yes, i was physically alone.

Yes, but this doesn't necessarily mean the person was alone if the person was carrying anything in the mind.I don't mean you-awareness- but just physical aloneness isn't it.You may be with a group but still alone.

bruce sean wrote:

I understand that. I've understood it the first time. But why be with others who celebrate an illusion? That was my question. Not if it's possible to happen to be with others, but still be alone. That's understood.
But why be there in the first place? Doesn't your very presence reinforce their illusion?

I very seriously doubt that you can break another's illusion by resistance.

BobD wrote:

bruce sean wrote:

I understand that. I've understood it the first time. But why be with others who celebrate an illusion? That was my question. Not if it's possible to happen to be with others, but still be alone. That's understood.
But why be there in the first place? Doesn't your very presence reinforce their illusion?

I very seriously doubt that you can break another's illusion by resistance.

Is that resistance? You see, Tom said that. He said that sometimes resistance is necessary, that it might be intelligent to resist, say, being part of a group who let's say identifies with a cause, like the hunger in Africa perhaps, and does something about that: donates money, pulls some strings, writes articles in the newspapers, and so on. And so non-cooperating with such a group, and others similar is resistance.

  And I said that is not resistance. Resistance always implies a center which resists. There's no intelligence when that center is active. You're simply not associating yourself with a group that stands together through some false beliefs, that's all.

BobD wrote:

I was alone. I too am curious why you ask bruce.

Just because too many of us talk of facts, truth, all that, and then get excited about a New Year's party, or be with family ON CHRISTMAS-to me, that would be a contradiction.

  Now, you in particular, Bob, may NOT be alone on New Year's Eve, and I know why. It might also explain why you were alone on Christmas, but it's not my business.

bruce sean wrote:

BobD wrote:

bruce sean wrote:

I understand that. I've understood it the first time. But why be with others who celebrate an illusion? That was my question. Not if it's possible to happen to be with others, but still be alone. That's understood.
But why be there in the first place? Doesn't your very presence reinforce their illusion?

I very seriously doubt that you can break another's illusion by resistance.

Is that resistance? You see, Tom said that. He said that sometimes resistance is necessary, that it might be intelligent to resist, say, being part of a group who let's say identifies with a cause, like the hunger in Africa perhaps, and does something about that: donates money, pulls some strings, writes articles in the newspapers, and so on. And so non-cooperating with such a group, and others similar is resistance.

  And I said that is not resistance. Resistance always implies a center which resists. There's no intelligence when that center is active. You're simply not associating yourself with a group that stands together through some false beliefs, that's all.

In my situation, I have a very large family...and all of them participate in the christian belief to some extent or another. At the same time though...they also know my views on their belief systems, and did not have any problem with my calling and telling them I was going to spend the day alone.  There was no resistance on either side...just as there would have been no reinforcement of any illusions had I shown up. I guess my point is that I'm not that important. I do not have the power or the responsibility to reinforce or tear down another's illusion.
In answer to your question...No, my presence does not reinforce their illusion.

I have a question for the propagandists . How can anyone accuse everyone they meet of being a propagandist and attempt to set standards of what human beings should  do on Christmas eve, or New Years Eve? Insisting you should be alone  because that is what  neurotics believe everyone should do and brag about like them? Maybe to be miserable like them? For Propagandists like them to really be psychologically self sufficient and free of inner, and outer influence even including, or doubting their own patterns, habits and dogmatic ideas ? They should not trust their own neurosis .What kind of human being studies themselves  than proceeds to try and  set standards to throw everything in the garbage everyone says except them, and force yourselves to be alone if you want to go out on new years Eve or be with others on any given day ? Do not listen to these spiritual tyrants they never knew themselves what they were doing  and you can learn no matter what you do if your being influenced, or beyond influence yourselves ? There are  no standards except to conform, and conformity has nothing to do with learning and self awareness at all . In fact it is a  criminal act to impose our beliefs on another about really being psychologically alone, and individually whole and beyond influence unless your pointing out the absolute importance of that for everyone, even to doubt you to unless they see the beauty of that for themselves . There are no ideas that are correct standards, that do not limit anyone .   :-)

WHEN YOU ARE AWARE THAT YOU ARE TRANSFORMED YOU ARE NOT . A man who says "I know" is the most destructive human being because he really does not know . What does he know ?  So; when you  are aware that you are transformed, you are not . J. KRISHNAMURTI Madras Dec. 5th 1953 The Collected Works Volume 3 page 5                     The transformation of the world is brought about by the transformation of oneself, because the self is the product and a part of the total process of human existence.

To transform oneself, self-knowledge is essential; without knowing what you are, there is no basis for right thought, and without knowing yourself there cannot be transformation. One must know oneself as one is, not as one wishes to be, which is merely an ideal and therefore fictitious, unreal; it is only that which is that can be transformed, not that which you wish to be. To know oneself as one is requires an extraordinary alertness of mind, because what is is constantly undergoing transformation, change; and to follow it swiftly the mind must not be tethered to any particular dogma or belief, to any particular pattern of action.

If you would follow anything, it is no good being tethered. To know yourself, there must be the awareness, the alertness of mind in which there is freedom from all beliefs, from all idealization, because beliefs and ideals only give you a color, perverting true perception. If you want to know what you are, you cannot imagine or have belief in something which you are not. If I am greedy, envious, violent, merely having an ideal of non-violence, of non-greed, is of little value.... The understanding of what you are, whatever it be- ugly or beautiful, wicked or mischievous- the understanding of what you are, without distortion, is the beginning of virtue. Virtue is essential, for it gives freedom.

Last edited by everyone (2011-12-31 18:59:01)

wilbro99 wrote:

everyone, I just had a thought that I will post here, if for no other reason than to begin the New Year's celebration in this neck of the woods a tad early.

Don't try to figure that out; I can't.

My first thought when reading what JK had to say is no fucking wonder he was not understood; he bounces back and forth between two absolutely different languages trying to tie the body to the mind.

Happy New Year!

terrific,
you can take a fellow all the way out of the sea but you can't take the sailor all the way out of Master Brown:)
Happy New Year to you too, you old salty dog!

bruce sean wrote:

everyone wrote:

I have a question for the propagandists . How can anyone accuse everyone they meet of being a propagandist and attempt to set standards of what human beings should  do on Christmas eve, or New Years Eve? Insisting you should be alone  because that is what  neurotics believe everyone should do and brag about like them? Maybe to be miserable like them? For Propagandists like them to really be psychologically self sufficient and free of inner, and outer influence even including, or doubting their own patterns, habits and dogmatic ideas ? They should not trust their own neurosis .What kind of human being studies themselves  than proceeds to try and  set standards to throw everything in the garbage everyone says except them, and force yourselves to be alone if you want to go out on new years Eve or be with others on any given day ? Do not listen to these spiritual tyrants they never knew themselves what they were doing  and you can learn no matter what you do if your being influenced, or beyond influence yourselves ? There are  no standards except to conform, and conformity has nothing to do with learning and self awareness at all . In fact it is a  criminal act to impose our beliefs on another about really being psychologically alone, and individually whole and beyond influence unless your pointing out the absolute importance of that for everyone, even to doubt you to unless they see the beauty of that for themselves . There are no ideas that are correct standards, that do not limit anyone .   :-)

Propaganda's coming to town.

Enlightenment and propaganda are the same thing.

pearl wrote:

Come to think of it, someone who is truly alone would never make a big deal about it, brag about it and ask others...

yes very true that

This time you missed the boat, Eden. ;-)

BobD wrote:

bruce sean wrote:

everyone wrote:

I have a question for the propagandists . How can anyone accuse everyone they meet of being a propagandist and attempt to set standards of what human beings should  do on Christmas eve, or New Years Eve? Insisting you should be alone  because that is what  neurotics believe everyone should do and brag about like them? Maybe to be miserable like them? For Propagandists like them to really be psychologically self sufficient and free of inner, and outer influence even including, or doubting their own patterns, habits and dogmatic ideas ? They should not trust their own neurosis .What kind of human being studies themselves  than proceeds to try and  set standards to throw everything in the garbage everyone says except them, and force yourselves to be alone if you want to go out on new years Eve or be with others on any given day ? Do not listen to these spiritual tyrants they never knew themselves what they were doing  and you can learn no matter what you do if your being influenced, or beyond influence yourselves ? There are  no standards except to conform, and conformity has nothing to do with learning and self awareness at all . In fact it is a  criminal act to impose our beliefs on another about really being psychologically alone, and individually whole and beyond influence unless your pointing out the absolute importance of that for everyone, even to doubt you to unless they see the beauty of that for themselves . There are no ideas that are correct standards, that do not limit anyone .   :-)

Propaganda's coming to town.

Enlightenment and propaganda are the same thing.

Oh, no, no, no.