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#1 2011-12-22 11:19:02
- adam
- Member
- Registered: 2008-09-01
- Posts: 105
Relation between thought and awareness
Can we say that awareness has a relation with thought, but thought has no relation with awareness?
In the sense that awareness can act on thought and end them, but awareness cannot be cultivated or touched upon by thought.
So where does that leave us?
If we ask the question, who is it that is aware, then is that a wrong question?
It seems to me that the mechanism of thinking is quite clear, it operates on the principle of action, subject an object. It being a movement of the subject acting on an object (The object meaning the object in the thought), say for example the thought of wanting to avoid fear, the fear is the object, the action is wanting to avoid and the subject being the me. All these three form the thought.
Now if we consider awareness, to ask who or what is it that is awareness, is that a correct question?
If there is an entity then that is just another thought wanting to be aware. Thought wanting to implement awareness.
Then what is the awareness of thought, is this also a right question, because it implies an object which has been identified as thought. It is the naming of it as thought and thus being just a thought.
So what is awareness? Can it at all be defined? or is there just awareness without any identification, both physically and mentally, in the sense awareness 'of' both mental and physical objects, mental being thought, feeling etc. and physical being through the senses.
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#2 2011-12-22 11:25:57
- awareness
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- Registered: 2011-09-03
- Posts: 4038
Re: Relation between thought and awareness
awareness has no relationship with thought
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#3 2011-12-22 12:25:35
- adam
- Member
- Registered: 2008-09-01
- Posts: 105
Re: Relation between thought and awareness
^^
If awareness has no relation to thought then there can be no awareness of thought nor can awareness end thought.
I don't know whether awareness can end thought, but of course there can be awareness of thought, just like awareness of something external
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#4 2011-12-22 12:41:36
- awareness
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- Registered: 2011-09-03
- Posts: 4038
Re: Relation between thought and awareness
awareness is vital and has no opposite
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#5 2011-12-22 13:09:52
- adam
- Member
- Registered: 2008-09-01
- Posts: 105
Re: Relation between thought and awareness
awareness may not be related to thought, but it can act on thought and so has a relationship with it, but thought cannot act on awareness. Awareness is not of thought but can act on it.
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#6 2011-12-22 13:12:48
- BobD
- Member
- Registered: 2008-10-15
- Posts: 1803
Re: Relation between thought and awareness
adam wrote:
awareness may not be related to thought, but it can act on thought and so has a relationship with it, but thought cannot act on awareness. Awareness is not of thought but can act on it.
It would seem that awareness and thought are mutually exclusive
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#7 2011-12-22 13:21:13
- awareness
- Member
- Registered: 2011-09-03
- Posts: 4038
Re: Relation between thought and awareness
the presence, which has no opposite (the past is not the opposite of presence), acts, which means awareness is in which there is action. but thought is not-action, so not-action must end.
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#8 2011-12-22 13:57:22
Re: Relation between thought and awareness
BobD wrote:
adam wrote:
awareness may not be related to thought, but it can act on thought and so has a relationship with it, but thought cannot act on awareness. Awareness is not of thought but can act on it.
It would seem that awareness and thought are mutually exclusive
don't, don't don't believe the hype! Awareness is thought, it is just not psychological thought. For awareness to be at all relies on the sensate body; neurons are firing all the time and sending signals which constitute awareness.
Last edited by joe (2011-12-22 13:58:10)
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#9 2011-12-22 14:16:56
- awareness
- Member
- Registered: 2011-09-03
- Posts: 4038
Re: Relation between thought and awareness
ok joe, surely you mean the word awareness, which is thought, which is limited. but i think we are speaking about something real, which cannot be touched by thought
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#10 2011-12-22 14:19:30
Re: Relation between thought and awareness
awareness wrote:
ok joe, surely you mean the word awareness, which is thought, which is limited. but i think we are speaking about something real, which cannot be touched by thought
You are speculating about something 'real' which can not be touched by thought. Big difference, and likely not recognized for what it is.
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#11 2011-12-22 14:21:58
- awareness
- Member
- Registered: 2011-09-03
- Posts: 4038
Re: Relation between thought and awareness
why to speculate. do you speculate about a tree?
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#12 2011-12-22 14:26:04
Re: Relation between thought and awareness
Are you aware of the tree? What you are calling awareness has a residue, that is the speculation. To have any idea whatsoever about awareness means that it is touched by thought, or as adam has put it there is a relationship. Think about it.
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#13 2011-12-22 14:28:10
- awareness
- Member
- Registered: 2011-09-03
- Posts: 4038
Re: Relation between thought and awareness
thats what i said, the idea, the construct, the speculation, has to to come to an end, nothing else
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#14 2011-12-22 14:30:00
- RJ
- Member
- From: New Zealand
- Registered: 2011-01-29
- Posts: 2776
Re: Relation between thought and awareness
I wonder if sentient beings on other plantes argue about the nature of their consciousness...ess
maybe its a kind of growth pain?
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#15 2011-12-22 14:36:51
- night
- Member
- From: California
- Registered: 2010-11-21
- Posts: 934
Re: Relation between thought and awareness
joe wrote:
BobD wrote:
adam wrote:
awareness may not be related to thought, but it can act on thought and so has a relationship with it, but thought cannot act on awareness. Awareness is not of thought but can act on it.
It would seem that awareness and thought are mutually exclusive
don't, don't don't believe the hype! Awareness is thought, it is just not psychological thought. For awareness to be at all relies on the sensate body; neurons are firing all the time and sending signals which constitute awareness.
I guess that explains the disconnect. If Joe defines awareness as technical thought then they are redundant abstractions now. Not useful at all for communication. Why not define awareness as a pack a neurons, that'd be actually much more technically sound that using an abstraction such as "thought". But then you have the senses too, as you say, stimulating the pack of neurons, and all the chemicals entering and exiting the pack of neurons through the blood, all of which coming from the nervous system, the digestive system, the glandular system, the hormonal system, etc. - so, the whole body is inseparable from the pack of neurons. But wait, the pack of neurons is stimulated and organized by the events outside of the body, acting and reacting, the body entering the flow and creating other events that come back to it. Interacting with other bodies, nature, elements, what not. So this whole pack of neurons is the whole environment now, including that particular body.
But now we have a pack of neurons that is differentiated, as human or as some other species. It has a definite structure. It is a particular lens into this physical universe. The undifferentiated consciousness has being narrowed down (differentiated) in order to operate as a particular form.
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#16 2011-12-22 14:37:54
- RJ
- Member
- From: New Zealand
- Registered: 2011-01-29
- Posts: 2776
Re: Relation between thought and awareness
I mispelt plantets
oooh I did it again
how interesting
Would anyone like to spend the next 5 hours microanalysing my dyslexic propensities around imaginery extra-terrestrials.
oh no hang on, I have a life
come on guys, I understand the pre-xmas tension is naturally grinching our collective subconciousness...ess, all that childhood trauma about to be tickled again (especially the beared paedophile in the red suit, seriously WTF!!)
anyway, where's the love is alls I'm saying
can't remember even when I saw that four letter word on these hallowed pages last
when people stop talking about love, I for one want to say FUCK, frequently.
I mean FUCK!!!
do you realise how goddamn fucking lucky you are having a computer in front of you and all this free time to talk about all this meaningless shit!!!
rah!
fuckn bloatfest
goodie, think I am in just the right mood to go to the mall now,
thanks, cheerio:)
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#18 2011-12-22 16:36:49
- BobD
- Member
- Registered: 2008-10-15
- Posts: 1803
Re: Relation between thought and awareness
joe wrote:
BobD wrote:
adam wrote:
awareness may not be related to thought, but it can act on thought and so has a relationship with it, but thought cannot act on awareness. Awareness is not of thought but can act on it.
It would seem that awareness and thought are mutually exclusive
don't, don't don't believe the hype! Awareness is thought, it is just not psychological thought. For awareness to be at all relies on the sensate body; neurons are firing all the time and sending signals which constitute awareness.
Lol! Don't have a cranial cow joe. Wtf are we discussing if not physcological? Damn man...yer gonna pull yer clavin...then where will you be. (Cliff Clavin that is) Put down the Red Bull and proceed to your nearest holistic, inner child meditation center.
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#19 2011-12-22 16:42:30
Re: Relation between thought and awareness
BobD wrote:
joe wrote:
BobD wrote:
It would seem that awareness and thought are mutually exclusivedon't, don't don't believe the hype! Awareness is thought, it is just not psychological thought. For awareness to be at all relies on the sensate body; neurons are firing all the time and sending signals which constitute awareness.
Lol! Don't have a cranial cow joe. Wtf are we discussing if not physcological? Damn man...yer gonna pull yer clavin...then where will you be. (Cliff Clavin that is) Put down the Red Bull and proceed to your nearest holistic, inner child meditation center.
Bob, wtf are you talking about? I was playing with the line of don't believe the hype but maybe you didn't see that. Look, you yourself said there is no connection between thought and awareness. Since you seem to have an inkling of what awareness is to you, where do you place it? In other words, what is awareness?
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#20 2011-12-22 16:46:56
- BobD
- Member
- Registered: 2008-10-15
- Posts: 1803
Re: Relation between thought and awareness
joe wrote:
BobD wrote:
joe wrote:
don't, don't don't believe the hype! Awareness is thought, it is just not psychological thought. For awareness to be at all relies on the sensate body; neurons are firing all the time and sending signals which constitute awareness.Lol! Don't have a cranial cow joe. Wtf are we discussing if not physcological? Damn man...yer gonna pull yer clavin...then where will you be. (Cliff Clavin that is) Put down the Red Bull and proceed to your nearest holistic, inner child meditation center.
Bob, wtf are you talking about? I was playing with the line of don't believe the hype but maybe you didn't see that. Look, you yourself said there is no connection between thought and awareness. Since you seem to have an inkling of what awareness is to you, where do you place it? In other words, what is awareness?
Jesus christ joe (In the spirit of christmas of course) I was frikking agreeing with you. Man...what oldie but goodie are you watchin??
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#22 2011-12-22 17:03:25
- RJ
- Member
- From: New Zealand
- Registered: 2011-01-29
- Posts: 2776
Re: Relation between thought and awareness
joe wrote:
butch up, RJ...why pine for love?
thanks mate, I needed that
by the way just in case you are ever down this way, the correct vernacular in these parts is 'harden up'.
The fuller version being
"oh dear, you poor diddums, here let me get you a nice warm cup of HARDEN THE FUCK UP!"
if you tell a kiwi to 'butch up' the be prepared to watch carefully for a quick glimmer of recognition in his eyes as you may only have a few milliseconds before he whips out some vaseline and bends you over the nearest bar-stool.
don't say I didn't warn you.
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#24 2011-12-22 17:12:10
- BobD
- Member
- Registered: 2008-10-15
- Posts: 1803
Re: Relation between thought and awareness
Look joe...you respond to me yelling in arrogant certitude and assuming that I didn't know the difference between pshchological and mechanical with this little tidbit:
"don't, don't don't believe the hype! Awareness is thought, it is just not psychological thought. For awareness to be at all relies on the sensate body; neurons are firing all the time and sending signals which constitute awareness."
...and I in turn, in my egoic, idiosyncric and typical manner...pop off with in essence, my version of "No shit, sherlock" assuming that all here were cognitive enough to know that OF COURSE we are talking about the psychological realm.
So here's what I'll do short of draw you a picture...awareness (being mechanical) and PSYCHOLOGICAL thought are mutually exclusive. There....are you feeling better now? Or is awareness not mechanical in your eyes? If not...then I feel as though I have opened up yet, another can of worms.
Last edited by BobD (2011-12-22 17:13:32)
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#25 2011-12-22 17:39:12
Re: Relation between thought and awareness
BobD wrote:
Look joe...you respond to me yelling in arrogant certitude and assuming that I didn't know the difference between pshchological and mechanical with this little tidbit:
"don't, don't don't believe the hype! Awareness is thought, it is just not psychological thought. For awareness to be at all relies on the sensate body; neurons are firing all the time and sending signals which constitute awareness."
...and I in turn, in my egoic, idiosyncric and typical manner...pop off with in essence, my version of "No shit, sherlock" assuming that all here were cognitive enough to know that OF COURSE we are talking about the psychological realm.
So here's what I'll do short of draw you a picture...awareness (being mechanical) and PSYCHOLOGICAL thought are mutually exclusive. There....are you feeling better now? Or is awareness not mechanical in your eyes? If not...then I feel as though I have opened up yet, another can of worms.
so what is awareness Bob, in your own words?
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