KFA - Krishnamurti Foundation of America

when a bird is frightened, it poops and flies away...when we are frightened, we sit in our poop...go figure.

>> what is fear?

> OK... what is fear? I want to be terribly honest with myself... I don't want to take a "pose" and try and pretend I don't feel fear... or that fear is not factor in my life... I want to look at it operating within myself.

good.

> Sometimes late at night I slip into panic. My body becomes extremely agitated... my breathing rate increases... there is a sense of eminent danger... my heart rate quickens... but on those occasions there is no actual evidence of eminent danger.

> If I stay with it... if I just allow the feelings to course through me... they subside. So that is one kind of fear... which stands out in sharp relief in those moments and is experienced for what it is.

intense fear without any (obvious) stimulus.

> What about the fear that does not present itself as it actually is... as an "experience"... the "low-grade" fear that is "active" never-the-less. I may not always be able to "access" it. But I can catch myself in "fear management"... I can see myself "reacting" or moving away from the fear.

fear that dwells below the threshold of awareness. deep hidden fear.

> Also there is the fear that rapidly expands when I have to come before people that I perceive may not be friendly... or that I think are going to be judgmental... my whole body constricts and my thinking becomes cloudy, disjointed and erratic.

fear of being judged, seen critically.

> What they all have in common is a sense of the constricting of the life force... a loss of ease with myself... a sense of danger... a threat... that is operating on the psychological level. The whole operation of fear seems to be operating on the psychological level.

describe what the moment is like in which fear first begins to manifest. what happens to your thoughts? emotions? physiology?

> describe what the moment is like in which fear first begins to manifest. what happens to your thoughts? emotions? physiology?

my thoughts generally get muddled at the onset of fear. the fear trigger begins to dominate, and in my case, being obsessive compulsive, to loop (repeat). sometimes the fear loops eclipse other thought. in other situations, they coexist. sometimes they fade. sometimes they "go underground" which is often the most insidious, because they churn away at the level of pure feeling without showing themselves. i think of this as below the threshold of consciousness.

my emotions get exaggerated. sometimes frozen, as if the slightest movement could make things worse. i tend to get very pessimistic, resigned, despairing. and to feel that i must endure, rather than try to dispel the fear in any way.

i clench my jaw. my breathing gets less regular and more shallow. my heart rate increases. my palms get sweaty. sometimes my chest tightens. sometimes my hands tremble. i often get a headache. sometimes i get a hot flash that surges up like a wave of fire from chest to head.

phil- I meant in a notebook (writing)-good thought though-

Last edited by mikec (2008-04-15 14:39:26)

> Having a dialogue in this forum-writing-style is quit a challenge... in person we could clear things up in second... once we commit to writing... things have a way of seeming less mutable and appear more concretized... however for the sake of accepting the challenge, let's see if we can make it work. This thread could prove to be the model for us to being able to enter a real dialogue together in this way.

threads seem to fly apart into a network of tangents. the main point often lost in the vortex. this can be fun, a phil-ish group mind improvisation. but more satisfying for me is to stay with the main question until the participants all agree the inquiry is ready to move on.

>> "what is it that provokes these manifestations?"

> I feel separate from what I imagine is the source of the threat... I imagine the threat is "out there"... or some "foreign" element has entered my body and is making me ill... and I feel separate from that as well... or a thought arises that is extremely agitating and I feel separate from that... in my sense of separation... there is an interval of time in which fear arises... does that make sense?

separation. me and the other. the other as external disruptive (to me) entity.

> I am watching myself... I am watching this whole process... and I see that when fear arises I feel separate from something I am afraid of... so when that sense of separation is "posited" in my mind... there is an interval of time in which fear arises.

please elaborate on "interval of time" ... :-)

Phil wrote:

joe wrote:

when a bird is frightened, it poops and flies away...when we are frightened, we sit in our poop...go figure.

This reader loves simple teachings offered in everyday English, well done, thanks Joe.   

Hmm.  Fear.  A normal part of being human.   A lack of faith.

hi phil...faith is fear turned over.  When living by faith, fear rides shotgun.

hi richard...you are speaking of motive, I assume, when you say 'manage' fear.  Is that correct?

Yes, curiosity and so on play into this, but they can not be forced or they only serve as a buffer.  This is where motive of an arising self has proven out to be conflict again and again.

I was speaking of the impact of body work because it is not only the mind we are inquiring into.  The human being can be split into three categories or characteristics for the sake of discussion---thinking, sensation, and movement.  If these three are balanced in the way a person functions, the messages sent from one to the other are instantaneous and accurate.  If there is not this balance, the signals are crossed, conflict and division is perceived.

So if one sees that the way he is functioning is the link to his suffering, it may be wise to understand the functioning of the whole body/mind/senses as it is occurring.

all the best to you as well---

joe

Hi rachMiel,

"Fear" is such a powerful place to explore. Thank you for your thread! Some thoughts I've been working with.....

If I think that someday I will get rid of fear, this thought implies that the fear will be "gone" in some future time; that I will be rid of it in some future. In the moment that I am feeling fear, if I think to myself... “I must find the source and get rid of it once and for all,” I’ve already moved away from that fear. I am no longer “staying with it.” The thought, “I will get rid of this fear,” has moved me away from the actuality of the fear. I can see that I will end up sustaining the fear, never “living” with it or understanding it, if I keep on approaching it as something to run away from, to get rid of. So I want to approach it differently, without an opinion about it, so perhaps I can begin to understand it. I realize that I must be very honest with myself. During the course of the day, am I aware of when I feel fear and anxiety? Or am I  pushing it into the background of my life?   

What is happening when I am in a state of fear. Inevitably I am thinking, “I don’t want this feeling of fear; I don’t like it at all.” It feels enormously uncomfortable as it translates into my body and is sustained in my thinking. Am I really there, or present, when fear is happening? Or am I thinking about some future when something terrible is going to happen to me? Is there really some “thing” here and now that I am afraid of? As I “stay here” with this, I realize that some thought has “set off” fear. “What’s going to happen to me when such and such happens, or my dearest love dies and I’m left alone, or what if I get cancer like my mother did and suffer terrible pain?” These kinds of thoughts can flicker in and out of our daily thinking process very easily and quickly. It is clear that we must bring attention to our thinking in order to “catch” these thoughts and bring them into our conscious field of awareness so we can examine them.

A moment ago I was not afraid. What happened? Why am I afraid now? Am I actually afraid right now in the present or is it a thought provoking the fear?

Yes, the rattlesnake ripples across the trail on my hike, and I’m startled and realize that I can get bitten and die! I’m diagnosed with a disease and realize I can die. I hear the footsteps of the gestapo outside my window; they could be coming for me. I smell fire; is it my house and do I need to get out?....  What’s going to happen to me? Many, many things that are real and actual can scare us. We’re frightened in that instant. I realize too, that in those kinds of circumstances, some action is often required. With the action, the fear dissipates; I find myself getting out of the burning house or what ever I need to do in that moment.

In many cases fear is anxiety about “my” existence. Again, what’s going to happen to me? I realize I am imagining a future when I am alone, poor, sick, anonymous, unsuccessful, forgotten, without help..... But do I see that actually right “now,” I am really alright? Then I have a memory; I pull out a memory of when I felt bad, and I think, “oh my god, I don’t want to feel like that again.” I’ve become afraid again. But I’ve forgotten again that actually right “now,” I am really alright. I have food, a pretty good income, shelter. How much do I need right “now?”

If it is a question of more, wanting more, let me look at that! Why would I need more? Why do I feel that I am lacking?

I need energy to continue to explore. Fear drains me. When I am afraid, I’ve lost my curiosity to inquire, explore and really look at what is happening! Why would I do this?

What is fear giving me; why can’t I give it up? Another interesting place to explore!

with love... Deborah

Last edited by Deborah (2008-04-15 23:56:56)

deborah,

greetings. :-)

there is so much to digest in your posting that i must wait until tomorrow. it's midnight here and i am getting sleeeeeeeeeeeepy ...

time for my midnight meditation. hope i can stay awake. ;-)

rachMiel

There is fear which is an alertness to some danger, surprise, but we are talking about the fear experienced in the psyche. In the psyche, fear is a conclusion.  A conclusion when thought has made a connection between the inner and the outer, and has no where else to go.

phil, stevie wonder said it best...when you believe in the things, that you don't understand, then you suffer...superstition is the way.

state of the dialogue summary

here's where we are with respect to the original thread question:

what is fear?


fear is a state of psychological and physiological discomfort that arises in response to brain (thought) resisting the anticipation of personal suffering.


can those of us who are participating in the inquiry agree to this assertion? if so, we can move on to the next level in the exploration.

rachMiel