KFA - Krishnamurti Foundation of America

Einstein never fundamentally changed 'his' consciousness.
And those quotes can be just excerpts from what he read, not the result of insight. Like Bruce Lee taking quotes from k and 'adapting' them to Martial Arts-as if such a thing were possible...

curious that you choose myopic as a descriptive of that, since that word is usually associated with rose colored lenses...

And <everyone> leads us to the question of what it means, to see for oneself.

I think the only meaning is for each to say what we see, and that gets us nowhere, if this forum is to be an example of such saying.

Just saying, mind you...

everyone wrote:

Be your own savior not another's . What a powerful statement that is in a mass followers, and leaders divided  world.If we let the beauty of that statement  truly penetrate our conscious walls, and thick skulls, and all resistance. If we put down seeing through all others rose colored lenses, and myopic vision and see for ourselves . We'll see what happens when  we do .We see for ourselves .  :-)

Do tell everyone...please share your journey of being saved.

awareness wrote:

dear bruce, you never can be sure, if there is a fundamental change of consciousness in another body, or not. …

Awareness of what awareness is telling us, that awareness of awareness is consciousness, and that the one to whom that finding is being found is the body doing that finding, and further, that there is possible a fundamental shift in that finding that reveals to the finder a secret that only that body can come upon, is saying that we cannot know for sure whether or not that body is speaking from the knowing of such a fundamental shift, however that shift came into being.

I have a question or so:

Is it necessary to fold that awareness of awareness into any description of a fundamental shift if that shift is to be communicated from one body to another?

Can that enfolding be done by any body who does not know the difference that fundamental shift engenders?

Who amongst you will venture to answer this question by answering my prior two questions?

Who amongst you will answer the third question by pushing back against the premise I have set on the table here?

sds wrote:

Reality is merely an illusion albeit a very persistent one.


A question that sometimes drives me hazy: am I or are the others crazy?


We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.


Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.



A man should look for what is, and not for what he thinks should be.
(This could have easily been K saying this. As the one above about solving our problems with the same thinking. Obviously, Einstein must have had some insight just as JK did)

these are indeed good quotes from einstein. you know, d.bohm was a student of einstein and there must be this connection of science and religioussness. as scientist you are also a normal human being with all the problems of them, so of course i see something, which indicates in such similar "direction", in which matter and energy, non-time-space, conscioussness and other questions were the subject and as a living persons, they might experimented with their own brain-body, similar to members of this forum here. so i find, that you have created a comprehensible similarity.

A few more relevant quotes by Einstein:

Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind

Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds

Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding

Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school

The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing

I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones

The release of atom power has changed everything except our way of thinking...the solution to this problem lies in the heart of mankind. If only I had known, I should have become a watchmaker

Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence

The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed.

The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge

A human being is a part of a whole, called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest... a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty

Questioner: Some of us who have listened to you for many years agree, perhaps only verbally, with all that you say. But actually, in daily life, we are dull, and there is not the living from moment to moment that you speak of. Why is there such a huge gap between thought, or rather words, and action?

Jiddu Krishnamurti : I think we mistake verbal appreciation for real understanding. Verbally we understand each other, we understand the words. I communicate to you verbally certain thoughts that I have, and you remain on the verbal level, and from that verbal level, you hope to act. So, you will have to find out if verbal appreciation brings about understanding, action. For example, when I say that goodwill, affection, love, is the only solution, the only way out of this mess, verbally you understand, and if you are at all thoughtful, you will probably agree.

Now, why don't you act? For the very simple reason that the verbal response is identified with the intellectual response. That is, intellectually you think you have grasped the idea, and so there is division between idea and action. That is why the cultivation of ideas creates, not understanding, but mere opposition, counter - ideas; and although this opposition may bring about a revolution, it will not be a real transformation of the individual and therefore of society.

I do not know if I am making myself clear on this point. If we dwell on the verbal level, then we merely produce ideas because words are things of the mind. Words are sensate, and if we dwell on the verbal level, words can only create sensate ideas and values. That is, one set of ideas creates counter-ideas, and these counter-ideas produce an action, but that action is merely reaction, the response to an idea. Most of us live merely verbally, we feed on words; the Bhagavad-Gita. says this, the Puranas say that, or Marx says this, Einstein says that. Words can only produce ideas, and ideas will never produce action. Ideas can produce a reaction, but not action - and that is why we have this gap between verbal comprehension and action.

Now, the question wants to know how to build the bridge between word and action. I say you cannot, you cannot bridge the gap between word and action. Please see the importance of this. Words can never produce action. They can only produce a response, a counteraction or reaction, and therefore still further reaction, like a wave, and in that wave you are caught. Whereas, action is quite a different thing, it is not reaction. So, you cannot bridge the gap between the word and the action. You have to leave the word and then you will act.

Our difficulty, then, is how to leave the word. That means, how to act without reaction. Do you follow? Because as long as you are fed on words, you are bound to react; therefore, you have to empty yourself of words, which means emptying yourself of imitation. Words are imitation; living on the verbal level is to live in imitation, and since our whole life is based on imitation, on copying, naturally we have made ourselves incapable of action. Therefore you have to investigate the various patterns which make you copy, imitate, live on the verbal level; and as you begin to unravel the various patterns that have made you imitative, you will find that you act without reaction.

Sir, love is not a word, the word is not the thing, is it? God is not the word God, love is not the word love. But you are satisfied with the word because the word gives you a sensation. When somebody says, ''God,'' you are psychologically or nervously affected, and that response you call the understanding of God. So, the word affects you nervously and sensuously, and that produces certain action. But the word is not the thing, the word God is not God; you have merely been fed on words, on nervous, sensuous responses.

Please see the significance of this. How can you act if you have been fed on empty words? For words are empty, are they not? They can only produce a nervous response, but that is not action. Action can take place only when there is no imitative response, which means the mind must inquire into the whole process of verbal life. For example, some leader, political or religious, makes a statement, and without thought you say you agree, and then you wave a flag, you fight for India or Germany.

But you have not examined what was said, and since you have not examined, what you do is merely a reaction, and between reaction and action there can be no relationship. Most of us are conditioned to reaction, so you have to discover the causes of this conditioning, and as the mind begins to free itself from the conditioning, you will find that there is action. Such action is not reaction, it is its own vitality, it is its own eternity.

So, with most of us the difficulty is that we want to bridge the unbridgeable, we want to serve both God and mammon, we want to live on the verbal plane, and yet act. The two are incompatible. We all know reaction, but very few of us know action because action can come only when we understand that the word is not the thing. When we understand that, then we can go much deeper; we can begin to uncover in ourselves all the fears, the imitations, escapes, and authorities; but that means we have to live very dangerously, and very few of us want to live in a state of perpetual revolution.

What we want is a backwater refuge where we can settle down and be comforted, emotionally, physically, or psychologically. As between a lazy man and a very active man there is no relationship, so there is no relationship between word and action; but once we understand that and see the whole significance of it, then there is action. Such action, surely, leads to reality; it is the field in which reality can operate. Then we do not have to seek out reality; it comes directly, mysteriously, silently, stealthily. And a mind that is capable of receiving reality is blessed.

Source - Jiddu Krishnamurti talk in Bangalore, India July 25, 1948

sds wrote:

A few more relevant quotes by Einstein:

Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind

Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds

Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding

Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school

The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing

I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones

The release of atom power has changed everything except our way of thinking...the solution to this problem lies in the heart of mankind. If only I had known, I should have become a watchmaker

Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence

The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed.

The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge

A human being is a part of a whole, called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest... a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty

excellent

wilbro99 wrote:

The body whose nom de plume here is awareness responds: "awareness has neither relationship to consciousness nor it is consciousness. awareness is in which there is the ending of consciousness, the ending of unawareness. so unawareness is consciousness. awareness is not the opposite of unawareness.
Last edited by awareness (Today 15:26:00)"

Yes, which shows that you and I really do need to get our Rosetta Stone polished and up and working before the two of us can really communicate in this matter without a continual shifting of meaning.

Just saying…

k said also just that above:-)

Last edited by awareness (2012-06-30 16:50:19)

wilbro99 wrote:

Awareness, on your #20, JK did make the point about communication, but I am speaking to the problems of communicating that difference between the *verbal level* and that other level, where action as opposed to reaction occurs.

He said that if you operating at the *verbal level*, you were not getting it, and that if your were not getting, you did not get it. He offered the following as the way to get it:

"Therefore you have to investigate the various patterns which make you copy, imitate, live on the verbal level; and as you begin to unravel the various patterns that have made you imitative, you will find that you act without reaction."

Ok, so you and I think we have got it, fine, no harm, no foul, no judging, but if we are to communicate, we need the same meaning for the terms we use. You and I are not using the same meaning for consciousness and that creates a difficulty between us as far as communication is concerned. That was my overarching point.

ok, thank you for the fokus. for me conscioussness is matter, it is thought, a stream of .... .
the ending of matter is simultanous the releasement of energy.
the ending of thought is order in which there is awareness.

you seem more lucid, and happier, when you talk with someone as opposed to everyone.