KFA - Krishnamurti Foundation of America

Jayaraj · 2012-06-29 11:33:22

Eden wrote:
There are no entities. That is obvious. What doesn't seem so obvious to you is that the source of all illusions(including the illusion of self) is the same source(or non-source) as that of rainbows and flowers and the spots on a leopard's back.

I hope you will forgive me for saying this.I've said this before. What you say here is totally incorrect.The source of illusion is imagining a spot on a leopards back when there is no spot.It is imagining something the source is not making.

If what you say is the case, that is if both stem from the same source, then nothing can be done about it.Then your discussing here or anybody's discussing, has no validity.

Illusion is an error the brain is making due to the limitation of the organism,a limitation caused by that source producing things.I am referring to here the illusion of an ego.

The organism cannot see that things are in a flux-because then there cannot be an organism.So it, the brain , makes the error.The brain cannot correct it. It is not the brain, the intellect,the things that source put together, that corrects it. It is only the source that can correct it.It is insight that corrects it.Insight that takes place in the source seeing the ways of the source.Seeing the ways of the source-that means illusion is not the way the source operated, so was not produced by the source sir.Source doesn't produce illusions sir, make no mistake about it, because then it cannot be an illusion!!

Jayaraj · 2012-06-29 11:39:36

Oops sorry.Everyone says the same in post #65.I hadn't seen...

Last edited by Jayaraj (2012-06-29 11:40:57)

Jayaraj · 2012-06-29 11:59:04

Eden wrote:
night wrote:
Eden wrote:
So let me get this clear....what created the brain(God) is not what created thought? Hahaha. I love how the mind will come up with any idiotic BS necessary to keep duality/fragmentation alive. Thanks for the classic illustration!
Yes. There is 'all that is', and then what should be eliminated from it (!).

Let us save the world from duality.
You and I agree that duality poses no threat to the whole...it will be weeded out by nature in its own time(just as it was in our own body), and yet life is still as good and open as it will ever be, right now.

This is totally incorrect sir.Nature cannot weed out duality-because insight is not through evolution.

Last edited by Jayaraj (2012-06-29 17:39:13)

Jayaraj · 2012-06-29 12:16:32

Eden wrote:
beans wrote:
If this body gets sunburned, it will feel pain. The body of Eden will not feel that pain.
Totally false. It depends how open one is. I see badly sunburned bodies constantly, and in fact it is painful to see. That openness can extend further outward also, and one who is totally open can feel into the heart of another even better than they can feel into their own.

No sir, you cannot feel the physical pains in Beans body unless you wire up her brain into your nervous system.

night · 2012-06-29 15:01:45

Jayaraj wrote:
Eden wrote:
night wrote:

Yes. There is 'all that is', and then what should be eliminated from it (!).

Let us save the world from duality.
You and I agree that duality poses no threat to the whole...it will be weeded out by nature in its own time(just as it was in our own body), and yet life is still as good and open as it will ever be, right now.
This is totally incorrect sir.Nature cannot weed ot duality-because insight is not through evolution.

An insight is instantaneous but it comes after building up the necessary conditions for the insight to occur. Some people call insight realization. It's the same. This process of building up conditions is in time, like any process. The cycle is: growth - insight - growth - insight .... and so on.

Eden · 2012-06-29 15:45:35

Jayaraj wrote:
Eden wrote:
There are no entities. That is obvious. What doesn't seem so obvious to you is that the source of all illusions(including the illusion of self) is the same source(or non-source) as that of rainbows and flowers and the spots on a leopard's back.
If what you say is the case, that is if both stem from the same source, then nothing can be done about it.Then your discussing here or anybody's discussing, has no validity.

Illusion is an error the brain is making due to the limitation of the organism,a limitation caused by that source producing things.I am referring to here the illusion of an ego.

The organism cannot see that things are in a flux-because then there cannot be an organism.So it, the brain , makes the error.The brain cannot correct it. It is not the brain, the intellect,the things that source put together, that corrects it. It is only the source that can correct it.It is insight that corrects it.Insight that takes place in the source seeing the ways of the source.Seeing the ways of the source-that means illusion is not the way the source operated, so was not produced by the source sir.Source doesn't produce illusions sir, make no mistake about it, because then it cannot be an illusion!!

This is cult logic, at its finest. The fact is the 'source' produces all sorts of illusions on every level of existence, in all organisms. That is the fact. You have singled out one particular illusion and have claimed that particular illusion alone is not from the same source as all other illusions and movements in life. This is the logic of all cults. Total fragmented BS.

Your logic is faulty in all ways. If an illusion is caused by the limitation of an organism then that illusion is perfectly natural...as natural as the limitations and capacities of that organism. That is plainly logical. Next thing you will tell me is that the organism has been possessed by an evil entity--an evil entity from an alternate universe--a universe with an alternate Source.

When you've seen one cult, you've seen em all!

kirsten · 2012-06-29 15:49:23

yeah too bad you refuse to see yours

Eden · 2012-06-29 15:50:44

Jayaraj wrote:
This is totally incorrect sir.Nature cannot weed ot duality-because insight is not through evolution.

Insight is pattern recognition--period. Pattern recognition certainly takes time. Some patterns take more time to recognize than others. That is a biological fact. Welcome to planet earth, feel free to open your eyes.

wilbro99 · 2012-06-29 15:52:32

night sez: "An insight is instantaneous but it comes after building up the necessary conditions for the insight to occur. Some people call insight realization. It's the same. This process of building up conditions is in time, like any process. The cycle is: growth - insight - growth - insight .... and so on."

Yes, that is the process as I know it. Did that process, as you know it, involve any shifting in a sense of self?

kirsten · 2012-06-29 15:59:45

put it in the basket, chief !

Eden · 2012-06-29 16:38:26

kirsten wrote:
yeah too bad you refuse to see yours

feel free to point them out anytime, or perhaps you are just the janitor for the peanut gallery? that's cool too.

kirsten · 2012-06-29 16:57:30

got it

"The universe is made up of many worlds, and worlds within worlds, infinite layers of the entire spectrum of consciousness....if you are stuck in a layer of stuckupness, then simply become that which you want to attract and one will inhabit an entirely new dimension(and world) and one wont talk about or give importance to that silly layer of stuckupness any longer."

this is so.. cultish

Eden · 2012-06-29 17:01:11

it's entirely the opposite of what all cults teach in fact. so how do you figure?

RJ · 2012-06-29 18:01:39

no, she's right about the 'cultish cant'

You repeatedly use the same language to assert the same opinions over and over and never (and I really mean never) show any ability to adapt or modify your views through the course of discussion.

These are the signs of a mind and brain that has become set in an unmoveable world-view, aka cultishness.

Its rigid righteousness effectively castrates loving relationships.

Jayaraj · 2012-06-29 18:11:17

night wrote:
Jayaraj wrote:
Eden wrote:
You and I agree that duality poses no threat to the whole...it will be weeded out by nature in its own time(just as it was in our own body), and yet life is still as good and open as it will ever be, right now.
This is totally incorrect sir.Nature cannot weed ot duality-because insight is not through evolution.
An insight is instantaneous but it comes after building up the necessary conditions for the insight to occur. Some people call insight realization. It's the same. This process of building up conditions is in time, like any process. The cycle is: growth - insight - growth - insight .... and so on.

What are the conditions necessary for insight sir? If you measure is it insight? Then it is relative to the measuring yardstick, right? So then it is not insight. Which means to find the true nature of something , which is insight in to that whatever,what is required is to look without any yardstick,right? Which is to look without the past. And the past is all the accumulated knowledge,it is all of time.

Now this means the required condition for insight is in fact de-conditioning. That is pure looking or observation or awareness or whatever you call it so that there is no interpretation of any kind. So requirment is de-programming or de-conditioning. And this can not be a build up in time because then it is conditioniing, progamming, the process which makes insight not possible.

Last edited by Jayaraj (2012-06-29 18:13:14)

Jayaraj · 2012-06-29 18:28:43

Eden wrote:
Jayaraj wrote:
This is totally incorrect sir.Nature cannot weed ot duality-because insight is not through evolution.
Insight is pattern recognition--period. Pattern recognition certainly takes time. Some patterns take more time to recognize than others. That is a biological fact. Welcome to planet earth, feel free to open your eyes.

No sir, insight is seeing what makes a pattern, not patttern recognition.Recognition involves the past, which is knowledge.Otherwise with what do you make the recognition? And there is no such thing as complete knowledge.Never- that is an impossibility. So what you recognize is ever limited, so not insight.

That's the mix up sir.Pattern recognition is evolution, the process of knowledge & you call it insight. It's not.

Jayaraj · 2012-06-29 18:47:57

Eden wrote:
Jayaraj wrote:
Eden wrote:
There are no entities. That is obvious. What doesn't seem so obvious to you is that the source of all illusions(including the illusion of self) is the same source(or non-source) as that of rainbows and flowers and the spots on a leopard's back.
If what you say is the case, that is if both stem from the same source, then nothing can be done about it.Then your discussing here or anybody's discussing, has no validity.

Illusion is an error the brain is making due to the limitation of the organism,a limitation caused by that source producing things.I am referring to here the illusion of an ego.

The organism cannot see that things are in a flux-because then there cannot be an organism.So it, the brain , makes the error.The brain cannot correct it. It is not the brain, the intellect,the things that source put together, that corrects it. It is only the source that can correct it.It is insight that corrects it.Insight that takes place in the source seeing the ways of the source.Seeing the ways of the source-that means illusion is not the way the source operated, so was not produced by the source sir.Source doesn't produce illusions sir, make no mistake about it, because then it cannot be an illusion!!
This is cult logic, at its finest. The fact is the 'source' produces all sorts of illusions on every level of existence, in all organisms. That is the fact. You have singled out one particular illusion and have claimed that particular illusion alone is not from the same source as all other illusions and movements in life. This is the logic of all cults. Total fragmented BS.

Your logic is faulty in all ways. If an illusion is caused by the limitation of an organism then that illusion is perfectly natural...as natural as the limitations and capacities of that organism. That is plainly logical. Next thing you will tell me is that the organism has been possessed by an evil entity--an evil entity from an alternate universe--a universe with an alternate Source.

When you've seen one cult, you've seen em all!

Source produces the universe & living organisms & so on & these organisms without seeing the process of the source produce illusions.So it's not seeing, not looking that is causing illusion.

I am afraid you are deeply entrenched in a concept as Kirsten too pointed out to you sir. That only makes cult, not inquiry & observation.

Last edited by Jayaraj (2012-06-29 18:49:58)

everyone · 2012-06-29 19:00:16

wilbro99 wrote:
night sez: "An insight is instantaneous but it comes after building up the necessary conditions for the insight to occur. Some people call insight realization. It's the same. This process of building up conditions is in time, like any process. The cycle is: growth - insight - growth - insight .... and so on."

Yes, that is the process as I know it. Did that process, as you know it, involve any shifting in a sense of self?

It is very interesting .We are being told there is an effortless way to live without putting a carrot in front of our eyes . Enjoying what is or observing it change in flux . A way to do things without the dreadful feeling of responsibility, that hounds us . WE can't see doing anything that has no pleasure in it so we narrow down to the known pleasures . Than we think we must stop them to learn or see anything new . We block ourselves from learning or having insights by saying, or practicing methods, about what the conditions are to have them .There are no conditions except to not be self concerned and everything practiced leads to more self concern and you can see that if you want to .The whole thing in a nutshell is between conditioning that says we make things happen, and the truth awareness, and meditation, and insights, and affection , and joy, and care, and renewal of interest, compassion, happens to us.Insights happen when we are not terribly self concerned . Like waking up in the morning without an alarm, that waking just happens to us, we do not make it happen per se :-)

Last edited by everyone (2012-06-29 19:15:43)

Jayaraj · 2012-06-29 19:10:41

RJ wrote:
no, she's right about the 'cultish cant'

You repeatedly use the same language to assert the same opinions over and over and never (and I really mean never) show any ability to adapt or modify your views through the course of discussion.

These are the signs of a mind and brain that has become set in an unmoveable world-view, aka cultishness.

Its rigid righteousness effectively castrates loving relationships.

Jeez RJ, you have really started showing signs of intelligence!!

By the way sir, what's the status of your banned list? Me too in it?

beans · 2012-06-29 20:32:53

Eden wrote:
That openness can extend further outward also, and one who is totally open can feel into the heart of another even better than they can feel into their own.

Eden wrote:
There is only one heart.

How long can you ignore the inconsistencies?

Last edited by beans (2012-06-29 20:34:19)

Eden · 2012-06-30 00:00:42

Jayaraj wrote:
Eden wrote:
Jayaraj wrote:
This is totally incorrect sir.Nature cannot weed ot duality-because insight is not through evolution.
Insight is pattern recognition--period. Pattern recognition certainly takes time. Some patterns take more time to recognize than others. That is a biological fact. Welcome to planet earth, feel free to open your eyes.
No sir, insight is seeing what makes a pattern, not patttern recognition.Recognition involves the past, which is knowledge.Otherwise with what do you make the recognition? And there is no such thing as complete knowledge.Never- that is an impossibility. So what you recognize is ever limited, so not insight.

That's the mix up sir.Pattern recognition is evolution, the process of knowledge & you call it insight. It's not.

Nice try, but I am not speaking of silly pattern naming or the accumulation of fragmentations/beliefs/concepts etc. I am pointing to the pattern recognition that occurs in all animal species through life experiences, trial and error, pain, learning, etc.

Perhaps you have a better name for that movement.

Eden · 2012-06-30 00:07:59

Jayaraj wrote:
Source produces the universe & living organisms & so on & these organisms without seeing the process of the source produce illusions.So it's not seeing, not looking that is causing illusion.

The source of illusion in the universe is not seeing? Brilliant! The cause of illusion is not illusioning! Hilarity ensues.

RJ · 2012-06-30 01:32:48

Jayaraj wrote:
RJ wrote:
no, she's right about the 'cultish cant'

You repeatedly use the same language to assert the same opinions over and over and never (and I really mean never) show any ability to adapt or modify your views through the course of discussion.

These are the signs of a mind and brain that has become set in an unmoveable world-view, aka cultishness.

Its rigid righteousness effectively castrates loving relationships.
Jeez RJ, you have really started showing signs of intelligence!!

By the way sir, what's the status of your banned list? Me too in it?

you, sir, have confused me with someone who should be addressed as sir, sir.

Putting aside the thinly veiled insult in your compliment I can assure you that I would like to be a banner or a bannee as much as one or two extra holes in my head.

Eden · 2012-06-30 02:43:11

Personally I would like to eliminate all ego safe havens in the world, and I plan to do it by the end of next year. If that fails(which I doubt) I plan to put them all in a prison the size and shape of earth.

everyone · 2012-06-30 10:58:42

Eden wrote:
Personally I would like to eliminate all ego safe havens in the world, and I plan to do it by the end of next year. If that fails(which I doubt) I plan to put them all in a prison the size and shape of earth.

I suggest ending the Alpha ape, cave man theory, the psychological shelter we theorize as real evolution in mankind . That seems to be a favorite ME First shelter .That is one false theory that bolsters up many chest thumping men, and one of our safest personal refuges but one of the easiest to disprove, even without insight . :-)

Last edited by everyone (2012-06-30 11:01:34)

KFA - Krishnamurti Foundation of America

Announcement

#101 2012-06-29 11:33:22

Re: Sorrow

Eden wrote:

#102 2012-06-29 11:39:36

Re: Sorrow

#103 2012-06-29 11:59:04

Re: Sorrow

Eden wrote:

night wrote:

Eden wrote:

#104 2012-06-29 12:16:32

Re: Sorrow

Eden wrote:

beans wrote:

#105 2012-06-29 15:01:45

Re: Sorrow

Jayaraj wrote:

Eden wrote:

night wrote:

#106 2012-06-29 15:45:35

Re: Sorrow

Jayaraj wrote:

Eden wrote:

#107 2012-06-29 15:49:23

Re: Sorrow

#108 2012-06-29 15:50:44

Re: Sorrow

Jayaraj wrote:

#109 2012-06-29 15:52:32

Re: Sorrow

#110 2012-06-29 15:59:45

Re: Sorrow

#111 2012-06-29 16:38:26

Re: Sorrow

kirsten wrote:

#112 2012-06-29 16:57:30

Re: Sorrow

#113 2012-06-29 17:01:11

Re: Sorrow

#114 2012-06-29 18:01:39

Re: Sorrow

#115 2012-06-29 18:11:17

Re: Sorrow

night wrote:

Jayaraj wrote:

Eden wrote:

#116 2012-06-29 18:28:43

Re: Sorrow

Eden wrote:

Jayaraj wrote:

#117 2012-06-29 18:47:57

Re: Sorrow

Eden wrote:

Jayaraj wrote:

Eden wrote:

#118 2012-06-29 19:00:16

Re: Sorrow

wilbro99 wrote:

#119 2012-06-29 19:10:41

Re: Sorrow

RJ wrote:

#120 2012-06-29 20:32:53

Re: Sorrow

Eden wrote:

Eden wrote:

#121 2012-06-30 00:00:42

Re: Sorrow

Jayaraj wrote:

Eden wrote:

Jayaraj wrote:

#122 2012-06-30 00:07:59

Re: Sorrow

Jayaraj wrote:

#123 2012-06-30 01:32:48

Re: Sorrow

Jayaraj wrote:

RJ wrote:

#124 2012-06-30 02:43:11