KFA - Krishnamurti Foundation of America

beans wrote:

everyone wrote:

yes Beans that is part of it to this should not be .  I would say for me what I have seen is that sorrow is mostly why me, or self pity . I do not see sorrow as a path to anything wonderful, or any awakening . Yes I agree a lot of people nurture sorrow thinking it is spiritual . :-)

Well, ditto on that too. Sorrow can be for another's suffering or an animal's or species' suffering also, though - am not sure it's always related to self-pity.

Yes, many with Christian upbringing seem to think that sorrow is spiritual :-)

When you first said sorrow was this should not be that is self pity . Most people say this should not be related to something happening to them directly or indirectly, that they feel is happening to them . So why me and not another is self pity, even if we have cancer or lose a child in war .   :-)

beans wrote:

everyone wrote:

When you first said sorrow was this should not be that is self pity . Most people say this should not be related to something happening to them directly or indirectly, that they feel is happening to them . So why me and not another is self pity, even if we have cancer or lose a child in war .   :-)

If we see orphaned children of war on the news and know this is due to human ego, and then feel deep sorrow at the cause - is this self-pity?

No not at all . I see  real feelings can be compassion . Thought can also invent pity but no that is not sorrow, or personal psychological sorrow we are looking at or into together . There is the sorrow of war . The sorrow of starvation . Homelessness . No beans we are not specifying, or concluding the subject is to complex and vast for us to cover it all but with real seeing, patience,  and technical learning, we can, and maybe  we will . :-)

Last edited by everyone (2012-06-24 20:35:53)

beans wrote:

It seems to me that feeling sorrow after seeing children in wartime is 1)sadness plus 2)“wanting things to be other than what they are” = sorrow. Compassion would be the egoless movement to do something based on love, not just a sentiment.

Yes each human being would be the one to see what motivates them or causes their reactions or how deep their compassion, or care, or concern, really is ? Even if its sentiment ? So; When we  do anything from compassion, see acting  or Love, it is not a chore or an effort or us doing it  and there is no choice we do it . :-)

beans wrote:

True, only each human has a chance to see completely what is going on with him/herself. And yet we trick ourselves consciously or unconsciously for psychological self-preservation.

The key difference between sadness and sorrow is that in the latter, the person still believes there is a controller.

Yes I see that with you a controller learning, means a controlled learning  process . No process by a controller with motive is learning for its own sake . :-)

beans wrote:

everyone wrote:

Yes I see that with you a controller learning, means a controlled learning  process . No process by a controller with motive is learning for its own sake . :-)

I'm not sure exactly what you mean. To me, a controller is just a thought - the central thought. Can a controller learn?

The key difference between sadness and sorrow is that in the latter, the person still believes there is a controller.I see  there is no difference or key difference . Is there a sadness or personal sorrow not caused by reactive thought, or resistance or chemical imbalance in the brain from a drug, spice, hormonal imbalance, or any   substance we ingest , or any food allergy ?  To look into thought or personal sorrow caused by thought we must also be aware of the things we tell ourselves, the things we imbibe, the natural hormonal changes, that stimulate our mood swings. Like most I sometimes am not aware of a previous thought that changed my mood . So I realize I was inattentive, and unaware. I see I do  not believe in that mood as existing, without a previous  cause . All thought is a reaction to a previous cause, or some form of resistance in us . The thinker is the thoughts, as is the controller, the controlled .  :-)

Last edited by everyone (2012-06-25 09:43:23)

everyone wrote:

The key difference between sadness and sorrow is that in the latter, the person still believes there is a controller.I see  there is no difference or key difference . Is there a sadness or personal sorrow not caused by reactive thought, or resistance or chemical imbalance in the brain from a drug, spice, hormonal imbalance, or any   substance we ingest , or any food allergy ?  To look into thought or personal sorrow caused by thought we must also be aware of the things we tell ourselves, the things we imbibe, the natural hormonal changes, that stimulate our mood swings. Like most I sometimes am not aware of a previous thought that changed my mood . So I realize I was inattentive, and unaware. I see I do  not believe in that mood as existing, without a previous  cause . All thought is a reaction to a previous cause, or some form of resistance in us . The thinker is the thoughts, as is the controller, the controlled .  :-)

Yes, thoughts and emotions are form, not pure awareness, so they are affected by whatever else they come in contact with.

Have you ever seen a sad animal (other than human)? A dog grieving over the loss of a companion? Sadness is a natural response.

I think sorrow is different in that non-human animals probably don't have the capacity to understand that suffering is caused by human identification with ego, an aberration in evolution, and to want it to be otherwise/want to change the world.

Right, the optimal way is to observe without judging/repressing, all the time. (Not that we all do this all the time, so calm down all you hypocrite wranglers out there.)

Without observation/awareness the patterns of thoughts and emotions will continue without change, even if they're not judged/repressed.

beans wrote:

Right, the optimal way is to observe without judging/repressing, all the time. (Not that we all do this all the time, so calm down all you hypocrite wranglers out there.)

Without observation/awareness the patterns of thoughts and emotions will continue without change, even if they're not judged/repressed.

Yes Beans . Those who are observing, learning, seeing, are not the elete. They  are just human beings that are seeing the immaturity of personal high school drama when their vision turns to the whole divided world map, and view . My goodness when you see globally what is taking place. The revolutions . The Wars. The suffering, the poverty. The sexual discrimination.  The Evolution of warfare .Wall Street supporting the banks and the military industrial complex . Global warming . Pollution. Rain forests dying. Birds falling from the air . The Ospreys, and penguins  migratory patterns, the polar bears patterns,  killing them off because of the melting of the poles . Seeing the extinction of beautiful creatures that will not be replaced, and will lead to the creatures extinction, that depend on them .  Than seeing that tragedy externally  the inner personal vanity, the handsome  boy, and pretty girl issues, the sex, or no sex becomes less of an issue . When we see, listen without bias hear nature crying and the animals we destroy . Than The child becoming Tarzan, or King  of the apes means little . The child becoming a  princess, or beauty Queen  takes mostly a back seat in our life, and in our inquiries. Not  that we give up pleasure in life or do not enjoy some drama, some mystery, some excitement, some entertainment,  some adventure in life for  ourselves . After all we are all human beings here  are we not ? :-)

Last edited by everyone (2012-06-25 12:46:39)

everyone wrote:

beans wrote:

Right, the optimal way is to observe without judging/repressing, all the time. (Not that we all do this all the time, so calm down all you hypocrite wranglers out there.)

Without observation/awareness the patterns of thoughts and emotions will continue without change, even if they're not judged/repressed.

Yes Beans . Those who are observing, learning, seeing, are not the elete. They  are just human beings that are seeing the immaturity of personal high school drama when their vision turns to the whole divided world map, and view . My goodness when you see globally what is taking place. The revolutions . The Wars. The suffering, the poverty. The sexual discrimination.  The Evolution of warfare .Wall Street supporting the banks and the military industrial complex . Global warming . Pollution. Rain forests dying. Birds falling from the air . The Ospreys, and penguins  migratory patterns, the polar bears patterns,  killing them off because of the melting of the poles . Seeing the extinction of beautiful creatures that will not be replaced, and will lead to the creatures extinction, that depend on them .  Than seeing that tragedy externally  the inner personal vanity, the handsome  boy, and pretty girl issues, the sex, or no sex becomes less of an issue . When we see, listen without bias hear nature crying and the animals we destroy . Than The child becoming Tarzan, or King  of the apes means little . The child becoming a  princess, or beauty Queen  takes mostly a back seat in our life, and in our inquiries. Not  that we give up pleasure in life or do not enjoy some drama, some mystery, some excitement, some entertainment,  some adventure in life for  ourselves . After all we are all human beings here  are we not ? :-)

As a child, I wanted desperately to save the animals from pain caused by humans. I used to pray that I could absorb all the suffering of all the animals on the planet. And tried to imagine what that would feel like, as if imagining it would make it real - one animal's suffering doubled, quadrupled, and so on.

At some point one has to let it go.

Last edited by beans (2012-06-25 13:07:12)

beans wrote:

everyone wrote:

beans wrote:

Right, the optimal way is to observe without judging/repressing, all the time. (Not that we all do this all the time, so calm down all you hypocrite wranglers out there.)

Without observation/awareness the patterns of thoughts and emotions will continue without change, even if they're not judged/repressed.

Yes Beans . Those who are observing, learning, seeing, are not the elete. They  are just human beings that are seeing the immaturity of personal high school drama when their vision turns to the whole divided world map, and view . My goodness when you see globally what is taking place. The revolutions . The Wars. The suffering, the poverty. The sexual discrimination.  The Evolution of warfare .Wall Street supporting the banks and the military industrial complex . Global warming . Pollution. Rain forests dying. Birds falling from the air . The Ospreys, and penguins  migratory patterns, the polar bears patterns,  killing them off because of the melting of the poles . Seeing the extinction of beautiful creatures that will not be replaced, and will lead to the creatures extinction, that depend on them .  Than seeing that tragedy externally  the inner personal vanity, the handsome  boy, and pretty girl issues, the sex, or no sex becomes less of an issue . When we see, listen without bias hear nature crying and the animals we destroy . Than The child becoming Tarzan, or King  of the apes means little . The child becoming a  princess, or beauty Queen  takes mostly a back seat in our life, and in our inquiries. Not  that we give up pleasure in life or do not enjoy some drama, some mystery, some excitement, some entertainment,  some adventure in life for  ourselves . After all we are all human beings here  are we not ? :-)

As a child, I wanted desperately to save the animals from pain caused by humans. I used to pray that I could absorb all the suffering of all the animals on the planet. And tried to imagine what that would feel like, as if imagining it would make it real - one animal's suffering doubled, quadrupled, and so on.

At some point one has to let it go.

Yes becoming hard is an option the self ,or thinker  can choose so theres no need to do anything that makes me uncomfortable or really shout from the rooftops .  I am quite aware of the stagnancy of  that idea. I was infected by it when I was young myself . :-) 


J.K. It is thought that creates the thinker Thought and the thinker are one, but it is thought that creates the thinker, and without thought there is no thinker. So one has to be aware of the process of conditioning, which is thought; and when there is awareness of that process without choice, when there is no sense of resistance, when there is neither condemnation nor justification of what is observed, then we see that the mind is the centre of conflict. In understanding the mind and the ways of the mind, the conscious as well as the unconscious, through dreams, through every word, through every process of thought and action, the mind becomes extraordinarily quiet; and that tranquility of the mind is the beginning of wisdom. Wisdom cannot be bought, it cannot be learned, it comes into being only when the mind is quiet, utterly still - not made still by compulsion, coercion, or discipline. Only when the mind is spontaneously silent is it possible to understand that which is beyond time. The Collected Works, Vol. VI - 206

No where will anyone  find silence not see acting through caring human beings  in life, to learn, cooperate take care of the earth, cooperate with nature, educate human beings,  and not help others wake up to their inherent capacity, talents not ever discovered by living in the past. Or even wake them up to the laziness, and callousness, and insensitivity  of most of mankind who seems to prefer staying blind, self centered,  even in these tragic times . That is the real sorrow of modern mankind .  :-)

Last edited by everyone (2012-06-25 14:43:38)

beans wrote:

everyone wrote:

Yes becoming hard is an option the self ,or thinker  can choose so theres no need to do anything that makes me uncomfortable or really shout from the rooftops .  I am quite aware of the stagnancy of  that idea. I was infected by it when I was young myself . :-)

Nah, everone, trying to imagine wasn't about becoming hardened, it was a child's mind trying to figure out a way to take responsibility. The child wrote letters for human and animal rights orgs, demonstrated, etc.

By letting go....can one let go of the continuous thinking about / searching out the suffering in the world? And see what's happening with oneself? Personally (oh hypocrite wranglers) I am feeling burnt, but know better than to search out a new cause.

[Edited! Yay!]

Children do not burn out . Obviously that question is not always applicable to others states .Maybe you burnt out doing what you did because you did not love what you did for its own sake ? Nor do you seem to think it was the right thing to do for its own sake ? Did you expect to get satisfaction out of doing something good? ? Who is there to let go? What is there to let go of? Sorry no disrespect intended . Is it not important to find something you Love to do and shouldn't that be fairly easy in this time in history  ? I am not a cowboy but cowboys, and cowgirls can  call me  anything they want except late for dinner .   :-)

Last edited by everyone (2012-06-25 15:26:36)

Everyone, when someone repeatedly focuses on the horrors of the world which we already know about - this isn't exactly news - it begs the question "what is going on with that person?"

"My goodness when you see globally what is taking place. The revolutions . The Wars. The suffering, the poverty. The sexual discrimination.  The Evolution of warfare .Wall Street supporting the banks and the military industrial complex . Global warming . Pollution. Rain forests dying. Birds falling from the air . The Ospreys, and penguins  migratory patterns, the polar bears patterns,  killing them off because of the melting of the poles . Seeing the extinction of beautiful creatures that will not be replaced, and will lead to the creatures extinction, that depend on them .  Than seeing that tragedy externally  the inner personal vanity, the handsome  boy, and pretty girl issues, the sex, or no sex becomes less of an issue . When we see, listen without bias hear nature crying and the animals we destroy ."

everyone wrote:

I disagree that it begs the question what is going on with me . I rather would ask the question of what do you have to say about whether it is a factual or not to you and do you want me to balance it with some good things to please you about this time in the history of mankind?

As the person whom the question is begging, I can definitively say it is begged by those posts about the world situation to find out their reason :-) No, it's not a matter of balancing what you say with some "good news", it's about seeing that this may be a pattern, and if it is, is it draining energy from elsewhere.

everyone wrote:

That is an unusual question  from a woman that saw clearly as a young girl writing letters  that was seeing, and burnt out and stopped .respectfully What is up with you ?  :-)

I didn't say I was burned out by activism, per se, just that right at this moment I am feeling burned out in general. For the most part, I stopped activism, puppy mill protests etc a couple of years ago (at the ripe age of nearly 40) upon realizing it is just counter-activity and not the best use of energy right now. 

Now you...