KFA - Krishnamurti Foundation of America

everyone wrote:

Krishnamurti: To be a propagandist is to be a liar.

Is this a stinging rebuke to all Krishnamurti foundations and organizations concerning with dissemination of his teaching, everyone?

natura wrote:

everyone wrote:

Krishnamurti: To be a propagandist is to be a liar.

Is this a stinging rebuke to all Krishnamurti foundations and organizations concerning with dissemination of his teaching, everyone?

No my friend it is a rebuke of no one sharing or pasting anything for consideration or discussion of the ideas or thoughts in the quotes . Also propaganda itself must be looked at . If someone is convincing others to be nationalists, or ideologists saying my groups ideology is the only right ideology i consider that propaganda . If you say lets look into propaganda and see why we believe in propaganda, and ideology? If you  ask me to see what I think about the Collected works that talks about personal, and individual psychological freedom from propaganda, and all mental enslavement.  I see that is not propaganda no one can tell me it is .

These teachings  even point to our own fragmentation and previous conditioning and caution us about reforming along those old lines, or learning them to make ourselves more clever to advocate our own ideology  . See it happening in  Christians, Muslims, and Hindus  new age thinkers reforming themselves preaching old time religion and propaganda using some of the sayings from the Collected works . See to some are  believing in Jiddu Krishnamurti as an infallible  Avatar, which is no where close to the living truth . See for yourselves he does say often over the years, please do not do that make me a leader or new avatar? He clearly stated the teachings are anonymous.  He posited often  they are not from me, please gentlemen, and gentlewomen,  you discover the source of these great teachings for yourselves they are a gift to mankind in general to take or leave alone .

So awareness,insight the non substitutive life  will negate any  beliefs I falsely believe Jiddu Krishnamurti advocated along with past conditioning if I approach them as only a tool not a memorization process or something  to  be only repeated  . So i see if I can listen without bias and see What is the approach is important ?  I disagree reasonably that The Collected Works are propaganda, but others are  entitled to stay mentally addicted to anti theories about everything but their own beliefs, theories, and ideas, and personal attachments and self projections .To some These teachings are clear, sane rational reasoning, and science.

I see to others they also dismiss  their superstitions, and beliefs as unworkable,groundless theories,  and unverifiable ancient dogmas, rituals  and rhetoric. They point out ideology is  not universal truths, but divisive ideology, that cause all wars, and division. Maybe  To them they are to be feared because they even prevent others from recognizing their own self becoming,  which they have not ever seen as completely and totally false  spiritually, and traditionally?  If we have  seen things together with K. even if not all? Why  should we  not share the beauty even we see in these great works  that belong to all of mankind, not anyone personally and support the Schools, and K.F.A. ?

Last edited by everyone (2012-06-15 10:40:35)

everyone wrote:

Why  should we  not share the beauty even we see in these great works…?

Have we seen the beauty, indeed?

Is it in ‘these great works’ or somewhere else?

If we have seen that beauty, could we share it; is it somethig to be shared?

bruce sean wrote:

natura wrote:

everyone wrote:

No my friend it is a rebuke of no one sharing or pasting anything for consideration or discussion of the ideas or thoughts in the quotes . Also propaganda itself must be looked at . If someone is convincing others to be nationalists, or ideologists saying my groups ideology is the only right ideology i consider that propaganda . If you say lets look into propaganda and see why we believe in propaganda, and ideology? If you  ask me to see what I think about the Collected works that talks about personal, and individual psychological freedom from propaganda, and all mental enslavement.  I see that is not propaganda no one can tell me it is .

These teachings  even point to our own fragmentation and previous conditioning and caution us about reforming along those old lines, or learning them to make ourselves more clever to advocate our own ideology  . See it happening in  Christians, Muslims, and Hindus  new age thinkers reforming themselves preaching old time religion and propaganda using some of the sayings from the Collected works . See to some are  believing in Jiddu Krishnamurti as an infallible  Avatar, which is no where close to the living truth . See for yourselves he does say often over the years, please do not do that make me a leader or new avatar? He clearly stated the teachings are anonymous.  He posited often  they are not from me, please gentlemen, and gentlewomen,  you discover the source of these great teachings for yourselves they are a gift to mankind in general to take or leave alone .

So awareness,insight the non substitutive life  will negate any  beliefs I falsely believe Jiddu Krishnamurti advocated along with past conditioning if I approach them as only a tool not a memorization process or something  to  be only repeated  . So i see if I can listen without bias and see What is the approach is important ?  I disagree reasonably that The Collected Works are propaganda, but others are  entitled to stay mentally addicted to anti theories about everything but their own beliefs, theories, and ideas, and personal attachments and self projections .To some These teachings are clear, sane rational reasoning, and science.

I see to others they also dismiss  their superstitions, and beliefs as unworkable,groundless theories,  and unverifiable ancient dogmas, rituals  and rhetoric. They point out ideology is  not universal truths, but divisive ideology, that cause all wars, and division. Maybe  To them they are to be feared because they even prevent others from recognizing their own self becoming,  which they have not ever seen as completely and totally false  spiritually, and traditionally?  If we have  seen things together with K. even if not all? Why  should we  not share the beauty even we see in these great works  that belong to all of mankind, not anyone personally and support the Schools, and K.F.A. ?

Look, everyone,
‘propaganda’ is exactly the word for propagation, extension of whatever it is (faith, idea, teaching etc.)

So the words ‘dissemination’, ‘diffusion’, ‘distribution’ etc. are nothing but synonyms to it.

And that’s exactly what the mentioned foundations and organizations are doing: dissemination, propagation, propaganda – a form of communication which is aimed at influencing the attitude of people.

You say it is for sake of discussions. But discussions in order to achieve awareness, insight etc., they are everywhere. Nothing is without discussions, no religion, no teaching – nothing is new in that either.

So back to truth, lying and rebuke?

I have told him the exact same thing, and he didn't exactly like it-nor was he influenced by it. Maybe 10 years from now, another will point out to him the very same thing...

There is is one other scenario neither of you ever considered . You might be wrong and it might take you the rest of your lives in discussion groups arguing  your right and spitting into the wind with your own self projecting minds.  That doubt of ourselves seems to be lacking as does any real humility when we are  propagating our own theories to those that see and are beyond any dependency or attachment to personal opinions, ideas, and thought  . But feel free to rave on personal opinions even yours are plentiful, just not true. Did you miss the point about paths and influence and who the real influencers really are as thought and memory  assembled by themselves and society ?

Do you or we ever consider what we are  advocating,  as an ideal from personal will is propaganda from personal selfishness, maybe some ambition and  envy, and jealousy  to ? Can you see  that we are all learning about ourselves if we are serious not denying it? Ponder that or not either way its no skin off my back how long anyone else takes to see, be aware of  the whole self as both believer, and believed, for themselves . At the very least new learners can find  something to agree with, but not see together with insights through awareness what is false or limited or partially true but incomplete? So: thank you anyway but I think we do need some K. pasted here. 

If some of you  do not like to read K. quotes why not remain silent and learn about your biases, prejudices,  and adverse or reverse ideas  as propaganda to? Learn about our own false influencing of others ourselves, and the personal will and arrogance, the intolerance, the frustration,  and root of fear it all comes from. Especially  when you really have nothing but reverse propaganda in your own trunk of self ?  So ; Please let those who want to read K. read him? Can't we all  see some will be coming here reading him for  the first time ? Ponder that or not ?   :-)

Last edited by everyone (2012-06-15 21:51:16)

You are doing a hard job to write all that, everyone, but I think we have taken a far deviation from the theme of ‘propaganda’.

However, if we want to speak human language here with all attached linguistic rules– all synonyms remain in place as well as the fact of dissemination of the teaching.

natura wrote:

You are doing a hard job to write all that, everyone, but I think we have taken a far deviation from the theme of ‘propaganda’.

However, if we want to speak human language here with all attached linguistic rules– all synonyms remain in place as well as the fact of dissemination of the teaching.

One could say that any personal psychological conclusion, or personal opinion about any new or old form of traditional spirituality? Any instructions on how  to see or be aware  of duality  could be considered propaganda. That includes you and everyone else propagating a personal idea, or personal judgement,  as our own home made propaganda. Ideas about  reversing ideas.Propaganda is personal  Ideas  about what everyone else is doing wrong in the world, and what we are supposedly doing right ourselves . :-)

everyone wrote:

bruce sean wrote:

natura wrote:

Look, everyone,
‘propaganda’ is exactly the word for propagation, extension of whatever it is (faith, idea, teaching etc.)

So the words ‘dissemination’, ‘diffusion’, ‘distribution’ etc. are nothing but synonyms to it.

And that’s exactly what the mentioned foundations and organizations are doing: dissemination, propagation, propaganda – a form of communication which is aimed at influencing the attitude of people.

You say it is for sake of discussions. But discussions in order to achieve awareness, insight etc., they are everywhere. Nothing is without discussions, no religion, no teaching – nothing is new in that either.

So back to truth, lying and rebuke?

I have told him the exact same thing, and he didn't exactly like it-nor was he influenced by it. Maybe 10 years from now, another will point out to him the very same thing...

There is is one other scenario neither of you ever considered . You might be wrong and it might take you the rest of your lives in discussion groups arguing  your right and spitting into the wind with your own self projecting minds.  That doubt of ourselves seems to be lacking as does any real humility when we are  propagating our own theories to those that see and are beyond any dependency or attachment to personal opinions, ideas, and thought  . But feel free to rave on personal opinions even yours are plentiful, just not true. Did you miss the point about paths and influence and who the real influencers really are as thought and memory  assembled by themselves and society ?

Do you or we ever consider what we are  advocating,  as an ideal from personal will is propaganda from personal selfishness, maybe some ambition and  envy, and jealousy  to ? Can you see  that we are all learning about ourselves if we are serious not denying it? Ponder that or not either way its no skin off my back how long anyone else takes to see, be aware of  the whole self as both believer, and believed, for themselves . At the very least new learners can find  something to agree with, but not see together with insights through awareness what is false or limited or partially true but incomplete? So: thank you anyway but I think we do need some K. pasted here. 

If some of you  do not like to read K. quotes why not remain silent and learn about your biases, prejudices,  and adverse or reverse ideas  as propaganda to? Learn about our own false influencing of others ourselves, and the personal will and arrogance, the intolerance, the frustration,  and root of fear it all comes from. Especially  when you really have nothing but reverse propaganda in your own trunk of self ?  So ; Please let those who want to read K. read him? Can't we all  see some will be coming here reading him for  the first time ? Ponder that or not ?   :-)

Sir, forget recommending somebody else's material: that's propaganda. Put it aside, while you're here, on a forum talk, and do the talking. To come here and recommend another's talking is quite ineffective on a forum talk.

  Pick a subject of your liking and go into it all the way. Anything you want, fear, bliss, ecstasy, ignorance, anything you want to talk about.

There is only one way for human beings to learn about themselves. That way is to be aware of themselves as both the thinker and the thought or the background.pretending to be something special or humble, and a nobody . Human beings suppress, repress, and sacrifice themselves for future rewards . One reward is to get recognized by peers as something special or someone special or someone moving up in any single society .

Freedom to express is not only important to Inquirers, and explorers, but important to societies. Real change does not some from within societies or from masses . What are our motives ? What are we factually? What can we really possibly know psychologically except what has been put in the background by force as children or by acceptance later in life? Have we had insights that negated that background or ended habits without substitution ? What did we see in the teachings that changed us or started us on a new journey in life if it did ? What can we see together, that is similar about all of us rather than agree with or disagree about together how superior we are or how far we've come or far we have to go ?

So see that Obviously those still positing ideas about truth, love, and awareness, or insights are still offering us the traditional fools gold of ideas. They do not want to learn they want to be gurus, and achieve as big shots, no matter if they are from the West, or the East . No specific limiting ideas or spiritual thought on earth is the key to awareness insights or whole revolution.See for yourselves that psychological freedom is from one particular form of thought we know as programming . See for yourselves science is not the answer or the enemy. See that Without seeing the whole map of thought the true believer as the belief.

See the ideological similarities, that lead to pretense and hypocrisy, repression, suppression, and sacrifice, or personal will, effort. and discipline. See every double standard discrimination of the sexes, races, and others. See that the utter hypocrisy in division of I am right you are wrong psychologically is caused by belief. See to; there is no way to be free from belief by swapping belief. Or to be Free from personal opinions, from personal experiences with dead saints, or invisible masters, or others judgements, and limited rigid ideas that cause stagnancy, and stultify the human mind by believing in something else . See to that to teach blind loyalty to children is part of mass, and group, or cultist insanity, not mental health .

See to that You are teaching them to follow or lead, or fit in and be blind to truth, hateful to other non believers, even others with opposing ideas and eventually go to war. See to for yourselves that conditioning is taught hatred, and prejudice. That taught programming, is not ever giving one human being on earth, who has a potential to evolve beyond thought, the new rare capacity to see. So yes we'll see together, think together without beliefs or its over for mankind. Please See to; all ideological division in thought, has already lost at the real Art of Inquiry in Life.

A whole life art of inquiry we all need to learn newly about every day for the rest of our good or not so good lives whether they are long or short see to they are over every moment of every day .Happy Fathers day to you mothers who have raised children alone or helped others and to you real fathers who love your children and want to keep them safe, and bright, out of harms way, and out of all wars as well as all government, and secular schools . :-)

Seeing The Whole "How do you look at a tree? Do you see the whole of the tree? If you don't see it as a whole, you don't see the tree at all. You may pass it by and say, "There is a tree, how nice it is"! or say, "It is a mango tree," or "I do not know what those trees are; they may be tamarind trees." But when you stand and look-I am talking actually, factually-you never see the totality of it; and if you don't see the totality of the tree, you do not see the tree. In the same way is awareness. If you don't see the operations of your mind totally in that sense-as you see the tree- you are not aware. The tree is made up of the roots, the trunk, the branches, the big ones and the little ones and the very delicate one that goes up there; and the leaf, the dead leaf, the withered leaf and the green leaf, the leaf that is eaten, the leaf that is ugly, the leaf that is dropping, the fruit, the flower-all that you see as a whole when you see the tree. In the same way, in that state of seeing the operations of your mind, in that state of awareness, there is your sense of condemnation, approval, denial, struggle, futility, the despair, the hope, the frustration; awareness covers all that, not just one part. So, are you aware of your mind in that very simple sense, as seeing a whole picture-not one corner of the picture and saying, "Who painted that picture?" The Book of Life June 17                       
 

Total Freedom

It is only when the mind, which has taken shelter behind the walls of self-protection, frees itself from its own creations that there can be that exquisite reality. After all, these walls of self-protection are the creations of the mind which, conscious of its insufficiency, builds these walls of protection, and behind them takes shelter. One has built up these barriers unconsciously or consciously, and one's mind is so crippled, bound, held, that action brings greater conflict, further disturbances.

So the mere search for the solution of your problems is not going to free the mind from creating further problems. As long as this center of self-protectiveness, born of insufficiency, exists, there must be disturbances, tremendous sorrow and pain; and you cannot free the mind of sorrow by disciplining it not to be insufficient. That is, you cannot discipline yourself, or be influenced by conditions and environment, in order not to be shallow. You say to yourself, "I am shallow; I recognize the fact, and how am I going to get rid of it?" I say, do not seek to get rid of it, which is merely a process of substitution, but become conscious, become aware of what is causing this insufficiency. You cannot compel it; you cannot force it; it cannot be influenced by an ideal, by a fear, by the pursuit of enjoyment and powers. You can find out the cause of insufficiency only through awareness. That is, by looking into environment and piercing into its significance there will be revealed the cunning subtleties of self-protection.
J. Krishnamurti Ojai 12th Public Talk 1st July, 1934      Krishnamurti Foundation of America

I find this great reading. Not only to a new person to K's teachings but to those who have read too, for if you say I have read, then you have made it in to knowledge.

Awareness cannot be  disciplined: If awareness is practiced, made into a habit, then it becomes tedious and painful. Awareness cannot be disciplined. That which is practiced is no longer awareness, for in practice is implied the creation of habit, the exertion of effort and will. Effort is distortion. There is not only the awareness of the outer-of the flight of birds, of shadows, of the restless sea, the trees and the wind, the beggar and the luxurious cars that pass by-but also there is the awareness of the psychological process, the inward tension and conflict. You do not condemn a bird in flight; you observe it, you see the beauty of it. But, when you consider your own inward strife, you condemn it or justify it. You are incapable of observing this inward conflict without choice or justification. To be aware of your thought and feeling without identification and denial is not tedious and painful, but in search of a result, an end to be gained, conflict is increased and the tedium of strife begins.
The Book of Life June 18

commentaries On Living Series 1

She said, under the trees after the talk, that she had come to listen in case the teacher of teachers spoke. She had been very earnest, but now that earnestness had become obstinacy. This obstinacy was covered over by smiles and by reasonable tolerance, a tolerance that had been very carefully thought out and cultivated; it was a thing of the mind and so could be inflamed into violent, angry intolerance. She was big and soft-spoken; but there lurked condemnation, nourished by her convictions and beliefs. She was suppressed and hard, but had given herself over to brotherhood and to its good cause. She added, after a pause, that she would know when the teacher spoke, for she and her group had some mysterious way of knowing it, which was not known  even to others. The pleasure of exclusive knowledge was so obvious in the way she said it, in the gesture and the tilt of the head.

Exclusive, private knowledge offers deeply satisfying pleasure. To know something that others do not know is a constant source of satisfaction; it gives one the feeling of being in touch with deeper things which afford prestige and authority. You are directly in contact, you have something which others have not, and so you are important, not only to yourself, but to others. The others look up to you, a little apprehensively, because they want to share what you have; but you give, always knowing more. You are the leader, the authority; and this position comes easily, for people want to be told, to be led. The more we are aware that we are lost and confused, the more eager we are to be guided and told; so authority is built up in the name of the State, in the name of religion, in the name of a Master or a party leader.

The worship of authority, whether in big or little things, is evil, the more so in religious matters. There is no intermediary between you and reality; and if there is one, he is a perverter, a mischief maker, it does not matter who he is, whether the highest saviour or your latest guru or teacher. The one who knows does not know; he can know only his own prejudices, his self-projected beliefs and sensory demands. He cannot know truth, the immeasurable. position and authority can be built up, cunningly cultivated, but not humility. Virtue gives freedom; but cultivated humility is not virtue, it is mere sensation and therefore harmful and destructive; it is a bondage, to be broken again and again.

It is important to find out, not who is the Master, the saint, the leader, but why you follow. 
J. Krishnamurti Commentaries on Living Series I Chapter 28 'Authority'

Total Freedom
You will be able to see for yourself how you are conditioned only when there is a conflict in the continuity of pleasure or the avoidance of pain. If everything is perfectly happy around you, your wife loves you, you love her, you have a nice house, nice children and plenty of money, then you are not aware of your conditioning at all. But when there is a disturbance - when your wife looks at someone else or you lose your money or are threatened with war or any other pain or anxiety - then you know you are conditioned. When you struggle against any kind of disturbance or defend yourself against any outer or inner threat, then you know you are conditioned. And as most of us are disturbed most of the time, either superficially or deeply, that very disturbance indicates that we are conditioned. So long as the animal is petted he reacts nicely, but the moment he is antagonized the whole violence of his nature comes out. 
J. Krishnamurti Freedom from the Known Chapter 2