KFA - Krishnamurti Foundation of America

awareness wrote:

so that is, k talked about. he came empty handed, and leave you empty handed. its now on you, to stay with the what is, with the fragmentation, in stayng with fragmentation, to be this fragment, to be fear, to be full handed, in which is laying the possibility of emptiness, because of transformation.

why are you talking to yourself out loud?  You don't need a forum to do that you know. You can just get out a piece of paper and pencil and talk to yourself at home...and you won't need to pay for internet anymore.

good deal!

Eden wrote:

but still, think of what you can buy with that 4 bucks instead....4 coconuts, or 90 seconds with a good therapist.

let the 4 nuts be what they are. i have no fun with money. it shows only the ugly face of reward and punishment, if you deal too much in the head with it. its good to have, but its also interesting to make the expierience, not to have. its easier to die!

wilbro99 wrote:

awareness wrote:

willy wrote:

Ok, I could say that this way: the observed, that mirror the observer uses to find itself is missing, so the finding of the observer is not possible, or again, with that mirror missing, the reflection cannot be made.

Now the question I have is how this is to be understood. I can see that absence being taken as a transformation, which brings that reflection back into the game. Is this how you see it?

i cannot find a reason, why to use the word transcendental, because i dont see any reason to use it. when the empty particular mind moves into the fiel of the unknow, then its after this jump in the field of the unknown, and noted that it was there before that jump. so it can also be said, that after that jump, that jump was not needed, put perhaps it was needed, otherwise it cannot be said, that it was not needed.
so to go into that what is meant beyond the word "presence", a presence "out of time", then it behaves so, that the content of this presence, if i want to use this word, that the "content" IS "the ending of the observer", it happens simultaneous: the ending of the "input" IS the output. so our conscioussness is not in a fix state, which is our self-knowledge, as a stream, as a stream, in which every moment comes an input as an impression of the "presence in time", in this ending of time IS the presence "out of time".
Last edited by awareness (Today 05:21:26)

The difference between us here may be trivial and it may be decisive; I don't know which. I'll lay out the difference as I see it, you can comment on it, and we'll see what's up.

I have absolutely no quibble with the description you have offered above. There is no between for a transformation, nor a transformed, to exist. I was referring to a different aspect; that of understanding such an at-once movement once it has been registered in memory and becomes capable of being reflected upon.

Say this. I stumble unbeknownst into the condition for such a movement to occur, and it occurs. I will have no understanding of what happened, and, in reflection upon it, all I know is that something absolutely different just occurred with/to myself.

Or say this. I am looking for enlightenment and I come across the condition for such a movement to occur. In either case, it is possible to mis-take that movement for a transcendental movement. I see that mis-taking as the trap that creates a guru. Make sense to you? Do you know of such a mis-take?

indeed, that mis-take was needed, it was for thought a mistake, but perhaps not for insight.

the point with the at-once action is that, which is the establishement of that new order.

let us say, there is a coffee grinder, the coffee is the input (accumulated, matter, self-knowledge), the output would be the ground coffee (released energy), the coffee grinder is not there. the end of the coffee bean IS the ground coffee and the torque in the same presence;-)

the understanding of this process, which is meant by the word transformation is necessary, otherwise the ground coffee would produce its own center, which is the resistance against the ground coffe, because thought only knews the coffee beans, the state of accumulation. so this whole is a constant torque, in which there is the ending of the impressions of the minutes and which IS at-once the other, which is not produced by thought.

wilbro99 wrote:

Ok, awareness, it looks like all we needed was the creation of an in-common language. I find your analogy well crafted. The ground coffee has its own center, the particular keeps its being by taking the shape of the transcended.

Another point. There comes an understanding of that process and that understanding is capable of recognizing the rise of the particular, where that recognition puts that vortex to rest. If that vortex rises to particular-hood, that understanding can catch its being and step out.

Does that comport with your understanding?

i understand this. thats the work of the brain, it search for accumulations, in that searching might arise vortex, that searching in every corner in the body is neccessary, the brain is learning, it learns, it gets to know the new order, before brain let the new order, which is intelligence, to come inside, inside the brain cells, so then is the brain not only the observer, which is separated from the obsorved, but there is then the understanding, that it is the producer, which is obsorving its own product, it is a very insight in the functioning of brain now, of feelings.

Last edited by awareness (2012-06-07 12:51:41)

wilbro99 wrote:

And I understand that (#62). Your analogy works for me. I have a different analogy, one dealing with our brain being constructed in a way capable of entertaining two separate grounds of identity, and of our necessity to come to an understanding of that process.

Those two analogies are related; learning and understanding are the same act in either. That is interesting.

yes learning, understanding are words for something, which is the business of the brain and that energy. the tradional way of learning, understanding is only by thought, that is thought business. thats why i said, there is no one, who is in in this understanding. that one, who understands, thats non-understanding, which is thought.

of course there is this uncertainity, but this uncertainity IS the new order, which is security as a fact. so brain is functioning in security, otherwise it cannot function.

but this uncertainity is naturally, because that, from which we talk about, is not the business of thought.

Last edited by awareness (2012-06-07 14:40:16)

wilbro99 wrote:

Hi awareness, uncertainty, yes, but I found that uncertainty as the door, an undifferentiated anxiety that in staying with revealed itself as the presence of the particular.

When understanding dropped that presence, another presence appeared. Perhaps that presence could be said to be the care of the one for the all, but that is pushing it into description. Another meaning of one is used here; it is the one when there is no one.

But I would like to change the subject, if I might. Let's assume that you and I have found a common language for speaking to a common that can only be known in-dividually. That subject is communication,

I would say that there is no way for any two of us to communicate with each other about the difference between the in-dividual and the one that is the particular unless that difference has become understood, and that only by knowing it in the actualized sense.

How would you say what I have just said?

PS: I have not addressed your edit, just saw it, but have you not just said what I just said?

right, i can follow the whole text in one overfly. of course, i said it often here in the forum. k´s talks began always about the conditioned state of mind, of the meanings beyond the words, of which the one with the one knows a lot. then he switched into talking about that, in which there is the one, which is ending, the unconditioned state. you can only follow it, when there is the one without the one, how you would say, and that is for the most because of the activity of the one with the one, simple not possible. thats the reason, why all these discussings leads to a chaos, because there cannot be real communication between two, which cannot follow each other.

so of cource, there is a resistense, which is immense, for the one, who is not undergoing transformation, for whom it remains only a concept, a concept which is the one made of.

either one is playing that games with both as a concept, or not. but i doubt, that one can hold out that playing with both as a concept, that would cause too much resistance, and it would lead to a collapse of the concept and so to a collapse of communication.

Last edited by awareness (2012-06-07 15:15:58)

i can only say, that thats a business of brain-body-interaction. i told you about. but there was no doubt even more, that that was not produced by thought, otherwise a lot of questions would grow, which would only be an indicator, to step again out of emptiness, out of the field of not-knowing.
brain is doing observation now, which is active in not allowing an interpretation of body-feeling into a conditioned emotion, or in other words, that conditioned emotion is undergoing immideatly transformation, so its not allowing to manifests or itself it is undergoing this transformation, not to accumulate, not to crystalize, but to be transformed.

so that contact of brain with that energy was, while brain observed that energy in the body ( released re-legered --collected energy from transformation of fear, sorrow into compassion),  by observing of that quality, was now the question how can ascendent the energy through the neck region into brain?

that was a question of thought, and of course no effort and impatience could lead to that ascension.

now, that was the business of the brain, which observed that energy and it has taken that energy by incorporation, so that that ascionsion proces was a very immediate and very quick one....so the brain is not longer the passive one, it is active, highly active

i think that brain-body-interaction is in which there is meditation.

Last edited by awareness (2012-06-07 18:05:21)

wilbro99 wrote:

I have no sense of what you are saying. I was asking how it was with you.

explanation about No.70:

dear willbro, in the above text i tried to explain how it was, what had happened with me, the me as a brain-body-complexicity, and how the energy from the very first beginning comes in contact with the brain, which is my brain, but not my brain, if you understand what i mean here.

its difficult to explain afterwards, what has happended in this deep field of emptiness, in the field of the ground, but i can say to you that there were no drugs in that happening - and there was no doubt, that that was not produced by thought, so not a result of thought, because it was deep in the night, and i only observed without trying to influence that energy.

so i can tell you, that the search-activity of the brain was working within two fields, parallel to spine,(might be, because of the two-half-brain) . please note, that i am talking here, what had happened within the brain-body and not with me, me as thought. so , if you go into this deep "area" there is nothing, which is me, which is my, it not my body, not my brain, not my live, not my death...

this energy would not come in contact, if there is a little movement of the particular mind. so i hope, you re-read the above text, because it is a text, where thought only describes something, like how water flow within a rill.

so thats the point to come to, that the me or i dont know anything about that happening, but it seems to me, that now brain, which has learned about, knows everything about that energy, its in contact with intelligence. Thought has now in some sense do do with, that one can see, that emotions like fear, sorrow are immidietly transformed. 

so it was the answer to your question. sorry, what an answer do you had expected?

Last edited by awareness (2012-06-08 05:33:24)

wilbro99 wrote:

Hi awareness, just reads your post. Because of our agreement to date, I was guilty of expecting an answer I could read without translating, and did not pause to try to understand it. mea culpa. Guilty.

I follow what you are saying and will answer in detail later. Just got up, and my tomatoes need watering and my flower beds need watering, and I need watering…

to care for a garden is very relaxing.