KFA - Krishnamurti Foundation of America

Sorry dude....I don't believe in psychological time.  I have heard a hundred different definitions for that concept of yours.   I have never said anything about suffering ending in the world so I haven't the slightest clue what you are talking about.  Pain is pain, and there will always be pain on this planet.  Suffering is one form of pain.  There are other kinds of pain that result from challenges not being met also or from patterns not being seen.  So what?  Open your eyes.

yes, that is what he is saying...check it out eden, the way you are painting it only ends any chance for a discussion.  If that is your goal then so be it but you are taking what he says and skewing it to the angle you see, that is all.  I do not think it leads to openness, do you?

Eden wrote:

Sorry dude....I don't believe in psychological time.  I have heard a hundred different definitions for that concept of yours.   I have never said anything about suffering ending in the world so I haven't the slightest clue what you are talking about.  Pain is pain, and there will always be pain on this planet.  Suffering is one form of pain.  There are other kinds of pain that result from challenges not being met also or from patterns not being seen.  So what?  Open your eyes.

Apparently you have forgotten what you have been saying here.

Suffering is one form of pain. But psychological suffering is purely brought about by illusions thought create.  Certainly cannot continue if illusions are seen whereas physical pain will always be there.

By the way sir, it is no concept of mine.

sds wrote:

Eden wrote:

Jayaraj wrote:

Functioning of thought in the technical area is very much a part of the process of the universe. So part of reality. But thought also thinks of psychological evolution.

Your position is that technical thought is part of the universe, but psychological thought is not part of the universe.  I don't know what else to say at this point except, "you are nuts".

I think he is just saying that psychological thought is an illusion.

No, that is not what he is saying at all. And if that is what he is saying, he is even nuttier.  Obviously 'thought' is happening, and it is not an illusion.

Jayaraj wrote:

Eden wrote:

Sorry dude....I don't believe in psychological time.  I have heard a hundred different definitions for that concept of yours.   I have never said anything about suffering ending in the world so I haven't the slightest clue what you are talking about.  Pain is pain, and there will always be pain on this planet.  Suffering is one form of pain.  There are other kinds of pain that result from challenges not being met also or from patterns not being seen.  So what?  Open your eyes.

Apparently you have forgotten what you have been saying here.

Suffering is one form of pain. But psychological suffering is purely brought about by illusions thought create.  Certainly cannot continue if illusions are seen whereas physical pain will always be there.

The very idea that thought is separate from the rest of the universe and it is the "source" of something is beyond absurd.  What is the source of thought? Thought is not the "root" of anything. It is simply the source of one kind of pain, a splinter in my foot is another kind of pain, and pain in my intestines from a poisonous berry is another, etc. 

There are many kinds of illusions on the planet, and when one falls for the illusion, one can get hurt. So what? Thought structures are one kind of illusion and when mankind overcomes those illusions there are others to deal with.  When you don't see reality for what it is, you can get hurt....it may be an idea that hurts, or poison berry that looks and tastes good enough to eat.

It's all just basic pattern recognition.  When you fail to see certain patterns, pain or death happens. What's new?

joe wrote:

again this is not openness at all, eden.  A--you have already decided about a mind of another before reading their words

Yes, I decided that all people whose names begin with the letter "J" are full of shit. I guess I should have read his words first.

Come on joe. It's you who is full of ultra lame conclusions.  Wake up man.

Eden,

You are moving away from the issue. The issue is,was always, whether suffering-psychological-can end in the process of evolution. That was your main argument to say the universe is in order, that it goes on evolving &  there is nothing to be done, that some perish & eventually there will be human beings who do not suffer.

Now this is the point I am raising:

        Now there is psychological thought. At this very moment man is with psychological thought. Now can this end through evolution? You say yes. What is ending psychological thought? Evolution is movement. Either as negation or as progress. Now both are activities. So evolution is activity which requires brain cell function. Now for psychological thought to end through evolution would mean some activity either as negation or progress. Both these entail brain cell function as said already. And ending brain cell function corespoding to psychological thought only would be ending psychological thought. And evolution implies movement which entails brain cell activity be it a movement in negation or progress. Therefore movement which is evolution only continues psychological thought because brain cell activity is made to function in this activity. Evolution is basically continuation-changing & continuing. Not fundamental change.

Change is brought about by seeing now without taking in the past-therefore not of evolution which then is stilling brain cell activity.

Last edited by Jayaraj (2012-05-17 00:53:58)

Jayaraj wrote:

Eden,

You are moving away from the issue. The issue is,was always, whether suffering-psychological-can end in the process of evolution. That was your main argument to say the universe is in order, that it goes on evolving &  there is nothing to be done, that some perish & eventually there will be human beings who do not suffer.

I never said there is "nothing to be done", nor did I speak of "evolution".  There are humans that are free NOW. That is the fact.  That humans will someday be unconditionally free of something is the non-fact. 

This body "does" lots of things all day long.  I poop, drink coconuts, care for my child, pick fruit from the trees, stretch, etc. You are jumping to bizarre conclusions. There are lots of things to be done to meet the needs of the body and to protect oneself from certain dangers, including the dangers posed by fragmented minds.

Jayaraj wrote:

Now this is the point I am raising:

        Now there is psychological thought. At this very moment man is with psychological thought. Now can this end through evolution? You say yes. What is ending psychological thought? Evolution is movement. Either as negation or as progress. Now both are activities. So evolution is activity which requires brain cell function. Now for psychological thought to end through evolution would mean some activity either as negation or progress. Both these entail brain cell function as said already. And ending brain cell function corespoding to psychological thought only would be ending psychological thought. And evolution implies movement which entails brain cell activity be it a movement in negation or progress. Therefore movement which is evolution only continues psychological thought because brain cell activity is made to function in this activity. Evolution is basically continuation-changing & continuing. Not fundamental change.

Change is brought about by seeing now without taking in the past-therefore not of evolution which then is stilling brain cell activity.

Your brain is too full of complexity.  It is much more simple than all of that.  It is called "pattern recognition".  Every body recognizes patterns differently, and every organism has differing capacities to recognize certain patterns.  Ideas and beliefs and superstitions are just patterns to be recognized.  It is a simple challenge of pattern recognition. Once the body sees the pattern for what it is, change happens.   My gosh, how you love to make things more complicated than it is.  That is what the immature mind does.

Last edited by Eden (2012-05-17 01:04:14)

Tell me something sir. are you somebody who believes in a creator God to say the universe is in order? This is nothing against Christianity but Jesus might have talked about a ground from which everything springs which K also talked about which has become this crazy notion now after years of misinterpretation.

You are certainly holding onto a belief sir. No  reason is penetrating you. So look at it. I cannot say more.

Only a totally fragmented mind takes the universal order and says "that part of the universe is non-universal" "that is disorder" "this is order".  Pure rubbish!

From Wikipedia:

Bohm was alarmed by what he considered an increasing imbalance of not only man and nature, but among peoples, as well as people, themselves. Bohm: "So one begins to wonder what is going to happen to the human race. Technology keeps on advancing with greater and greater power, either for good or for destruction." He goes on to ask:
What is the source of all this trouble? I'm saying that the source is basically in thought. Many people would think that such a statement is crazy, because thought is the one thing we have with which to solve our problems. That's part of our tradition. Yet it looks as if the thing we use to solve our problems which is the source of our problems. It's like going to the doctor and having him make you ill. In fact, in 20% of medical cases we do apparently have that going on. But in the case of thought, it's far over 20%.
In Bohm's view:
...the general tacit assumption in thought is that it's just telling you the way things are and that it's not doing anything - that 'you' are inside there, deciding what to do with the info. But you don't decide what to do with the info. Thought runs you. Thought, however, gives false info that you are running it, that you are the one who controls thought. Whereas actually thought is the one which controls each one of us. Thought is creating divisions out of itself and then saying that they are there naturally. This is another major feature of thought: Thought doesn't know it is doing something and then it struggles against what it is doing. It doesn't want to know that it is doing it. And thought struggles against the results, trying to avoid those unpleasant results while keeping on with that way of thinking. That is what I call "sustained incoherence".

My favorite trick is when thought divides the universe into 'order' and 'disorder'.  Can you believe humans are still falling for that bullshizz?  I can't wait to see what the ego will invent next to sustain itself.  To be continued......

Bohm +1
Jiddu -1