KFA - Krishnamurti Foundation of America

BobD wrote:

tree wrote:

(do you have some?)

I do. Along with a side of lunacy if you like.

yeah, and a glass of that milk and honey...

You say we've just dismissed the past.  Can I just wipe away the past? I can put it aside for the sake of a particular enquiry.  But my here and now is my past.  It is the residue in my mind.  Perhaps if I then challenge it, I may find that the here and now doesn't exist as content.  For content is always the past.  But the here and now that you're talking about isn't actually my here and now.  That can only exist when the self doesn't exist.  But if I see that my content of mind is only a reaction, wouldn't I stay clear of it?

hermann wrote:

You say we've just dismissed the past. Can I just wipe away the past? I can put it aside for the sake of a particular enquiry. But my here and now is my past...

But have you looked? Or is this a conclusion you've reached that then prevents looking?

Tom wrote:

hermann wrote:

Yes, that's what I mean. I haven't actually looked and I'm not actually looking now. I keep moving through the tunnel of my conclusions. But I'm not sure that that makes any sense either.

It makes sense if your conclusions are the result of looking. Are they?

Are my conclusions the result of looking?  I don't think so.  Isn't there a point where looking results in knowledge?  And isn't it the factor of time that's at work in this.  Knowledge seems to imply time.  The saying 'I know that I don't know'  or 'I know that I know nothing' seems to mark the moment of seeing.

Tom wrote:

hermann wrote:

Are my conclusions the result of looking? I don't think so. Isn't there a point where looking results in knowledge? And isn't it the factor of time that's at work in this. Knowledge seems to imply time. The saying 'I know that I don't know' or 'I know that I know nothing' seems to mark the moment of seeing.

Then what's the basis of your conclusions? If not from looking, whence do they come?

Isn't a conclusion the termination of the looking?  Looking comes to an end. I'm unable to take things in.  Maybe because I feel threatened, maybe there is the fear of getting lost.  Also there is the challenge of squaring what I see with what I believe.  I resist being open to the truth.

It is very nice - after these words - to look out the window at the budding trees.  My eyes are a little cleansed of that belief, and the senses are more open to the joy of life.  But the beauty of nature is one thing, the nature of my psychological hangups is not so accessible.  There should be the same beauty and joy in exploring my psychological landscape.  And there is to the extent that such exploration does take place.  Why do I allow myself to get stalled in my exploration?  What is the stalling factor?  Fear of the outside world that I still need to fit into?

Don't you?  Why not explore into yourself.  Only there will you find your genuine self.  I'm just your excuse for not getting serious.

You won't find your answer in my self.

Unless you talk on your own ground, that is all twaddle.

Go back to your first question, is it based on your own ground?

hermann wrote:

Go back to your first question, is it based on your own ground?

yes it is
living a life it is an ongoing question.. about the fitting in.
because i feel how it is being posited, society wants to have me fit, and i won't, but i do live in it and among it, and what i do is closely related and the interactions are about fitting in and expectations and to be beings with eachother in stead of society-members, so that's why i asked after reading you saying 'the need to fit'.. is there a need ?

kirsten wrote:

hermann wrote:

Go back to your first question, is it based on your own ground?

yes it is
living a life it is an ongoing question.. about the fitting in.
because i feel how it is being posited, society wants to have me fit, and i won't, but i do live in it and among it, and what i do is closely related and the interactions are about fitting in and expectations and to be beings with eachother in stead of society-members, so that's why i asked after reading you saying 'the need to fit'.. is there a need ?

Go back to # 337.  That question is about me, not about you.

Tom wrote:

hermann wrote:

Tom wrote:

Then what's the basis of your conclusions? If not from looking, whence do they come?

Isn't a conclusion the termination of the looking? Looking comes to an end. I'm unable to take things in. Maybe because I feel threatened, maybe there is the fear of getting lost. Also there is the challenge of squaring what I see with what I believe. I resist being open to the truth.

Looking has no termination. It's like learning: you don't ever stop learning, even though you might be ninety-nine.

And what prevents you from taking things in? That's easy. It's all the old things that you are already holding on to that prevent you from picking up and exploring the new. The moment you have just one belief, that's the beginning of resistance and sorrow. That one belief stops you from looking any further because you are now having to compare everything you see against that.

I'm not sure that there is a real difference between your description and mine.  That it's only the words that differ.  It's all the old things that you are already holding on to that prevent you from picking up and exploring the new. I'm fine with that and - by my reading - am saying pretty much the same thing.