KFA - Krishnamurti Foundation of America

Mr. Brightside · 2012-04-07 07:35:34

Hi,

I just found this out. Krishnamurti, in the book, "Education and the Significance of Life", says, "We have to create a world government which is radically different, which is not based on nationalism, on ideologies, or force" (p.57 - from an ebook).

This book, I think - correct me if I'm wrong - was written in the 1950s, and published in the 80s?

If so, did Krishnamurti advocate world government? Did he change his views over time?

I thought he wouldn't have advocated such an entity. A world government is a very large authority, and can only exist based on ideologies. Democracy is an ideology, too. Force? To govern, means you have a force to enforce the policies - that is force... I cannot reduce that to anything simpler. A world government seems to be a contradiction of Krishnamurti's ideas.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that nationalism is a problem, and is fundamentally selfish. If Krishnamurti advocated a world government what would he have thought of as the best one?

The idea just seems to contradict him on every level. If I HAD to label Krishnamurti, I would say that, based on his ideas on simple living, he would have been a green anarchist, but, again, I know he would have dismissed the title; I'm just saying, if I somehow HAD to lablel him, that is where he would be.

Thoughts?

kirsten · 2012-04-07 11:41:35

yes.. at the 50's he saw the world trying to bring about a world government,
and he saw how such a system will be just another form of the self being projected..
so he asked for a radically different approach, related to the only revolution - the inner revolution.

Eden · 2012-04-07 15:11:59

Mr. Brightside wrote:
The idea just seems to contradict him on every level. If I HAD to label Krishnamurti, I would say that, based on his ideas on simple living, he would have been a green anarchist, but, again, I know he would have dismissed the title; I'm just saying, if I somehow HAD to lablel him, that is where he would be.

Thoughts?

Clearly you have to label, which shows your immaturity. As for which world government he thought was the best one...the question is beyond absurd. It is obvious you don't have even the slightest clue as to his perspective on government or anything else for that matter.

Regarding force...a government that occasionally uses force, is vastly different than a government based on force.

Any authority guided by love, by the heart, is only guided by the authority of love, which is hardly authority, is it? If you know how to guide your own family or a child, connected to the heart, you know how to guide the world.

pearl · 2012-04-07 21:51:11

How can you bring about anything NEW, be it a govt, or a new way of living with an old, outdated mindset? (You here is the humanrace, not you personally)

How can you guide anyone be it your family, or the world when you're yourself completely lost? The new is but another idea of the old mind. But if you look, humanbeings thru out centuries have sought to bring about new systems, methods, outlooks, reforms, be it politically, economically, scientifically, religiously but with the same old mind, with out any understanding or insight into the crises athand.

Mr. Brightside · 2012-04-08 00:34:58

Eden wrote:
Mr. Brightside wrote:
The idea just seems to contradict him on every level. If I HAD to label Krishnamurti, I would say that, based on his ideas on simple living, he would have been a green anarchist, but, again, I know he would have dismissed the title; I'm just saying, if I somehow HAD to lablel him, that is where he would be.

Thoughts?
Clearly you have to label, which shows your immaturity. As for which world government he thought was the best one...the question is beyond absurd. It is obvious you don't have even the slightest clue as to his perspective on government or anything else for that matter.

Regarding force...a government that occasionally uses force, is vastly different than a government based on force.

Any authority guided by love, by the heart, is only guided by the authority of love, which is hardly authority, is it? If you know how to guide your own family or a child, connected to the heart, you know how to guide the world.

My immaturity? Did I upset you? You seem disgruntled by my post; how so? I'm not trying to attack you, but your post seemed quite full of anger.

If my question is absurd, then please enlighten me. I am willing to learn. Should I be condemned for asking questions? Perhaps it was a stupid question, but, questions should be asked if one doesn't know, and is keen to know.

Again, maybe I am wrong, but, if something is an authority, then something is an authority...would you care to explain, as your statement goes against formal logic - literally.

Also, when you said, "Clearly you have to label", are you saying, "we can only label; it is inevitable and necessary. Therefore, you, Mr. Brightside, are immature for not understanding such a simple thing that I understand completely." Or, are you saying, "You seem to have to label everything, but labelling everything is immature, we shouldn't label anything; or, at least many things"? Which one?

If the former, my response: I wasn't saying that labelling is inevitable or not, but I understand that many on this forum do think that labelling to stupid.

If the latter: I was only taking it as a hypothetical "must", let us say that a hypothetical magical law exists where we have to label everything (again, this is hypothetical - a thought experiment... I am not saying it is true or not), then I would label him as such, even though I believe that IF, and only IF, such labelling could exist, then the label would be subject to debate because of the vagueness and discrepancies it would entail.

I think I have provoked an emotional reaction in you, but I have a feeling you will deny this... really, I would love to do a brain scan when debating with people to see how emotional their brains get when arguing, while forgoing logic in the process. But, of course, seeing with blind rage (I'm not saying you were seeing with blind rage or not - I was universally speaking of anyone with such tendencies in debating) does not mean that you final answer is wrong... though, such conclusions (Krishnamurti didn't like conclusions, so, I should say, "realisations") may actually be guesses more than anything else.

Eden, maybe my question is dumb, and I am highly uneducated, but, do you support a world government? I take it you perhaps might, though your idea of one would be based on compassion, love and understanding, right? Is that what you are thinking? Again, maybe I am missing the point, so please explain.

Please reply, I do not mind being scolded, as, if I am wrong, then I will learn, and hopefully overcome my intellectual deficiencies.

Last edited by Mr. Brightside (2012-04-08 00:48:37)

Mr. Brightside · 2012-04-08 00:42:22

pearl wrote:
How can you bring about anything NEW, be it a govt, or a new way of living with an old, outdated mindset? (You here is the humanrace, not you personally)

How can you guide anyone be it your family, or the world when you're yourself completely lost? The new is but another idea of the old mind. But if you look, humanbeings thru out centuries have sought to bring about new systems, methods, outlooks, reforms, be it politically, economically, scientifically, religiously but with the same old mind, with out any understanding or insight into the crises athand.

Hi, Pearl,

Yes, I like this post, and this is what Krisnamurti would say, I believe. Many of our institutions today are merely relfections, and manifestations of the barbaric doctrines and practices in the past. Many people want to guide others, and, yet are lost themselves. I do not claim to know everything; thus I am asking questions, though, that doesn't mean that I don't have my own theories - all of course, are subject to change, as I don't hold onto them; if they are false, then they are false, time to move on; if true, then I will embrace what the truth is, even if I must throw out what I used to know and believe.

Eden · 2012-04-08 03:27:42

Mr. Brightside wrote:
If the latter: I was only taking it as a hypothetical "must", let us say that a hypothetical magical law exists where we have to label everything (again, this is hypothetical - a thought experiment... I am not saying it is true or not), then I would label him as such, even though I believe that IF, and only IF, such labelling could exist, then the label would be subject to debate because of the vagueness and discrepancies it would entail.

I think I have provoked an emotional reaction in you, but I have a feeling you will deny this...

You think wrong. There was no emotional reaction in me whatsoever. And even if there was emotion involved(which there wasn't), I highly doubt you could distinguish between emotional action, and emotional reaction.

As for your silly hypotheticals and thought experiments....there is nothing wrong with them....but they are a stage of immaturity that one will eventually grow out of. I would encourage you to just look at what is....that is sufficient. No "thought experiments" or bizarre "hypotheticals" are needed.

Eden · 2012-04-08 03:32:40

Mr. Brightside wrote:
I do not claim to know everything; thus I am asking questions, though, that doesn't mean that I don't have my own theories - all of course, are subject to change, as I don't hold onto them; if they are false, then they are false, time to move on; if true, then I will embrace what the truth is, even if I must throw out what I used to know and believe.

So perhaps you will be progressively abandoning the various theories that are ruling your life until the day you die? Is that it?

As long as your mind is fragmenting life, you will be spawning new theories as fast as you are abandoning the old ones. (or faster)

Mr. Brightside · 2012-04-08 05:30:22

Eden wrote:
Mr. Brightside wrote:
If the latter: I was only taking it as a hypothetical "must", let us say that a hypothetical magical law exists where we have to label everything (again, this is hypothetical - a thought experiment... I am not saying it is true or not), then I would label him as such, even though I believe that IF, and only IF, such labelling could exist, then the label would be subject to debate because of the vagueness and discrepancies it would entail.

I think I have provoked an emotional reaction in you, but I have a feeling you will deny this...
You think wrong. There was no emotional reaction in me whatsoever. And even if there was emotion involved(which there wasn't), I highly doubt you could distinguish between emotional action, and emotional reaction.

As for your silly hypotheticals and thought experiments....there is nothing wrong with them....but they are a stage of immaturity that one will eventually grow out of. I would encourage you to just look at what is....that is sufficient. No "thought experiments" or bizarre "hypotheticals" are needed.

Eden, why are you like this? Your posts are highly aggressive.

My hypothetical idea was something I didn't believe in... who would, lol? I agree that thought experiments aren't needed, they just help. I guess I'm just an immature child... well, at least I'm happy.

Mr. Brightside · 2012-04-08 05:41:35

Eden wrote:
Mr. Brightside wrote:
I do not claim to know everything; thus I am asking questions, though, that doesn't mean that I don't have my own theories - all of course, are subject to change, as I don't hold onto them; if they are false, then they are false, time to move on; if true, then I will embrace what the truth is, even if I must throw out what I used to know and believe.
So perhaps you will be progressively abandoning the various theories that are ruling your life until the day you die? Is that it?

As long as your mind is fragmenting life, you will be spawning new theories as fast as you are abandoning the old ones. (or faster)

... jeez, all this out of just asking a simple question. Relax, chillout, you're from Hawaiii!!! lol.

Yeah, I most likely will be abondoning theories throughout my life. I am always challenged everyday with info that proves what I believed as wrong. I get over it, and move on.

How are they ruling over me, if I am willing to discard them in an instant? I think it is when one clings to them (like it seems to be with you, yet you'lll deny it), then it rules over them.

So you don't have theories? Exactly how many atoms are on this planet? Do you know the answer to that? Perhaps you are some exalted master who knows everything... but, you don't know the answer to that, and thus you have a theory. Let us say that one were to find out exactly how many at one given point in time, then your theory might be proven true (by sheer luck, given the size of the world), or false.

You may not realise it, but you have theories all the time... all of us do. It's about being emotionally attached to them that is the problem.

Yes, my life is fragmented right now for having a guess on how many atoms are on this planet. I am suffering from agony, oh the pain, from this theory. Oh, I can't take it anymore. Hmmm, wait, I'm not suffering... what is this strange feeling. Oh, joy, that's right, joy... what? How can this be? My mind is fragmented with such silly thoughts. Time for my daily beating *gets base ball bat and starts beating self over head*.

Oh, jeez.

sds · 2012-04-08 10:59:20

Mr Brightside,

Please do not let Eden get to you.

He is not the typical K person on this forum.

He believes he has gone beyond K and that K missed many things.

Most on here think he is smug, arrogant, deceiving himself, lost, aggressive, etc

I have tried to talk to him several different times, to actually have a conversation or dialogue with him, but it is impossible it seems.

So please do not take it personally what he says to you. Read him, try to see what he is pointing to, but do not take it too seriously or personally....

And keep asking questions if you have them. They are not immature or wrong. Doubting, questioning, investigating is what K was all about. Thanks for being here and your questioning....

Eden · 2012-04-08 19:38:48

Mr. Brightside wrote:
Eden, why are you like this? Your posts are highly aggressive.

My hypothetical idea was something I didn't believe in... who would, lol? I agree that thought experiments aren't needed, they just help. I guess I'm just an immature child... well, at least I'm happy.

If anything is "aggressive", it is the act of labeling another.

So a fragmented mind is a happy mind? Great, enjoy!

Eden · 2012-04-08 19:45:37

Mr. Brightside wrote:
How are they ruling over me, if I am willing to discard them in an instant?

Yes, my life is fragmented right now for having a guess on how many atoms are on this planet. I am suffering from agony, oh the pain, from this theory.

You can't discard what you can't see.

Guessing how many atoms there are on the planet, or how many apples in a tree, has nothing to do with the fragmentation I am speaking of, obviously. Perhaps the word itself is new to you. That reply was exactly the kind of immaturity I am referring to. If an immature and fragmented mind is a happy mind, no doubt you have a life of happiness ahead of you. I'll be the last one to get in the way of your ignorant bliss. Perhaps intellectually masturbating about the number of atoms in the universe is what floats your boat. If so, you will find plenty of others here with a similar pastime. You've come to the right place for sure. So again, enjoy.

Last edited by Eden (2012-04-08 19:49:09)

wilbro99 · 2012-04-08 19:55:45

Mr. Brightside, look on the bright side.

Eden is simply telling the truth, and, if the truth hurts, whose fault is that?

Surely, on the side of the tin ear will the fault be layered.

And slathered on top with chocolate sauce and cream whipped to a peak.

The lady always brought a cool whip to the party...

[edit added part in brackets]

Last edited by wilbro99 (2012-04-08 19:56:34)

BobD · 2012-04-08 20:47:54

Yes Mr. Brightside...you should be grateful that you have finally found the truth from eden. Pull up your bootstraps and go forward my son. Spread the word!

sds · 2012-04-08 20:57:18

To Eden:

Your Smugness knows no bounds.....

beans · 2012-04-08 20:59:06

Hey, both BobD and sds are back today. Coincidence?

:-)

Last edited by beans (2012-04-08 21:05:58)

wilbro99 · 2012-04-08 21:17:46

beanZ, BobD occasionally hits ironic notes that sds seems not to know how to play, ...

but then, maybe we have a third playing both...

beans · 2012-04-08 21:25:06

Yes, I have noticed that.

But then each has said that they believe they're second-hand people at one time or another (which I don't agree with, but that's neither here nor there)....

sds · 2012-04-08 21:44:45

beans wrote:
Hey, both BobD and sds are back today. Coincidence?

:-)

Eden brought me back temporarily.

I just cant help but react to him....

He brings out the fiery side of me.

sds · 2012-04-08 21:46:35

Whats up Beans?

Still watching and enjoying that Mooji video satsang?

I have heard a lot of bad things about him from many, how he is a charlatan, a fake, not the real deal. Be careful with him......

beans · 2012-04-08 21:50:14

sds wrote:
beans wrote:
Hey, both BobD and sds are back today. Coincidence?

:-)
Eden brought me back temporarily.

I just cant help but react to him....

He brings out the fiery side of me.

Ah, so he could be your unintentional guru, if you understand what is meant.

sds · 2012-04-08 21:53:06

beans wrote:
sds wrote:
beans wrote:
Hey, both BobD and sds are back today. Coincidence?

:-)
Eden brought me back temporarily.

I just cant help but react to him....

He brings out the fiery side of me.
Ah, so he could be your unintentional guru, if you understand what is meant.

Of course, and vice versa too. Of course the Great Eden would never accept such a silly statement like that.

By the way Beans, I forget, are we friends or enemies It has been a while since we talked. I would like to be up to date....

beans · 2012-04-08 21:53:19

sds wrote:
Whats up Beans?

Still watching and enjoying that Mooji video satsang?

I have heard a lot of bad things about him from many, how he is a charlatan, a fake, not the real deal. Be careful with him......

I found Mooji interesting, and watched a few of the videos on Youtube. Well, I don't really care what others say about him and there is no way harm can be done....as I'm not looking to him for authority, just watching to see what his understanding is.

beans · 2012-04-08 21:54:43

sds wrote:
beans wrote:
sds wrote:

Eden brought me back temporarily.

I just cant help but react to him....

He brings out the fiery side of me.
Ah, so he could be your unintentional guru, if you understand what is meant.
Of course, and vice versa too. Of course the Great Eden would never accept such a silly statement like that.

By the way Beans, I forget, are we friends or enemies It has been a while since we talked. I would like to be up to date....

LOL, well sds, if you follow the pack mentality, then it follows I must be your enemy, but if we start fresh constantly without the past, then I'd say we're friends. :-)

KFA - Krishnamurti Foundation of America

Announcement

#1 2012-04-07 07:35:34

world government

#2 2012-04-07 11:41:35

Re: world government

#3 2012-04-07 15:11:59

Re: world government

Mr. Brightside wrote:

#4 2012-04-07 21:51:11

Re: world government

#5 2012-04-08 00:34:58

Re: world government

Eden wrote:

Mr. Brightside wrote:

#6 2012-04-08 00:42:22

Re: world government

pearl wrote:

#7 2012-04-08 03:27:42

Re: world government

Mr. Brightside wrote:

#8 2012-04-08 03:32:40

Re: world government

Mr. Brightside wrote:

#9 2012-04-08 05:30:22

Re: world government

Eden wrote:

Mr. Brightside wrote:

#10 2012-04-08 05:41:35

Re: world government

Eden wrote:

Mr. Brightside wrote:

#11 2012-04-08 10:59:20

Re: world government

#12 2012-04-08 19:38:48

Re: world government

Mr. Brightside wrote:

#13 2012-04-08 19:45:37

Re: world government

Mr. Brightside wrote:

#14 2012-04-08 19:55:45

Re: world government

#15 2012-04-08 20:47:54

Re: world government

#16 2012-04-08 20:57:18

Re: world government

#17 2012-04-08 20:59:06

Re: world government

#18 2012-04-08 21:17:46

Re: world government

#19 2012-04-08 21:25:06

Re: world government

#20 2012-04-08 21:44:45

Re: world government

beans wrote:

#21 2012-04-08 21:46:35

Re: world government

#22 2012-04-08 21:50:14

Re: world government

sds wrote:

beans wrote:

#23 2012-04-08 21:53:06

Re: world government

beans wrote:

sds wrote:

beans wrote:

#24 2012-04-08 21:53:19

Re: world government

sds wrote:

#25 2012-04-08 21:54:43

Re: world government

sds wrote:

beans wrote:

sds wrote:

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