KFA - Krishnamurti Foundation of America

LMP wrote:

Inward speculation sounds to me like an act, something that is being done. Now you implied that abstracting a car around the bend can be useful, to be cautious, it is not clear if there is a car or not; but abstracting a self cannot possibly have the same relevance since the one doing it obviously is present.

Exactly. Therefore he invents whatever he wants. Psychologically, there is no 'round the next bend in the road' at all.

awareness wrote:

Tom wrote:

awareness wrote:

oh no, it works.

It works for you to stay with what is. And so? Are we meant to applaud you, copy you or what else?

no need for applause, it has no value. it's your work to prove what k had said, nothing else.

No, to try and prove what he said makes no sense because this assumes from the start that K is right. And K may be wrong.

Last edited by Tom (2012-02-22 07:56:47)

Tom wrote:

tree wrote:

Tom wrote:

So I am still waiting to listen to you. Don't palm me off with the birds.

expectation and demand

No, I am waiting to listen to you. There is neither the expectation of it nor the demand for it, even though I may cajole you, tease you, bully you a little (I hope not without affection). I am demanding a dialogue with life, that's all. You are a part of that dialogue if you so wish to be. No-one can force you into it.

i have nothing to offer, go forth

(yeah, eat beans)

bruce sean wrote:

Right. So, no beliefs, no subject, because the subject WAS all those beliefs. The subject was not static, but a movement, the same movement as those beliefs. There is no static subject.

Yes, that's it. And the moving subject is endlessly searching for its own staticity, solidity, certainty. But when it stops moving, it is not then static; for when the subject ceases to move, the subject ceases too, not just the movement. So there is certainty only in death.

Last edited by Tom (2012-02-22 14:29:36)

Eden wrote:

Tom wrote:

I am demanding a dialogue with life, that's all.

Life keeps telling you that you are full of shit.

yup, the worm has turned

you did try to keep a civil tongue for a while there, I give you that
my sympathies

aye

Eden wrote:

Tom doesn't have a single person in his life that he trusts to call him on his bullshit. That's a lonely place.

RJ wrote:

aye

Yes, indeed, a lonely place. We have got to the heart of it.

Tom wrote:

pearl wrote:

Who is it to change anything? Seeing that it is wrong is the beginning. Did you ever pause and see that every single thing you do is wrong, completely disorderly? The way we relate to others, the way we talk, the way we engage in meaningless pursuits day after day...

But this is not a meaningless pursuit. At least, it is not for me; I am not pursuing anything.

But you get back to life off the forum and pursue meaningless things like power, security, name, prestige, etc, etc...?

Well, if I had assumed there wouldn't be a question mark, right.  It was a genuine question, ofcourse.

Tom wrote:

bruce sean wrote:

Right. So, no beliefs, no subject, because the subject WAS all those beliefs. The subject was not static, but a movement, the same movement as those beliefs. There is no static subject.

Yes, that's it. And the moving subject is endlessly searching for its own staticity, solidity, certainty. But when it stops moving, it is not then static; for when the subject ceases to move, the subject ceases too, not just the movement. So there is certainty only in death.

Now it's not clear anymore, to me. The subject was not something apart from that movement. So when the movement stops the subject ends, too, obviously. The subject was that movement, and when the movement is not, the subject is not either. They weren't two.

  Ok, after re-reading a few times what you said I guess you've put it in your words.

  Now, what kind of certainty do you have in mind, when speaking of death? Certainty might mean something static, palpable, solid. And usually that kind of death, of that movement, never happens, all the way 'till one physically dies. Is that what you had in mind? Physical death? That it's the only thing certain in life?

bruce sean wrote:

Now, what kind of certainty do you have in mind, when speaking of death? Certainty might mean something static, palpable, solid. And usually that kind of death, of that movement, never happens all the way 'till one physically dies. Is that what you had in mind? Physical death? That it's the only thing certain in life?

And we know that, don't we? Deep down we know that our only certainty is physical death, an event which also visits upon us total psychological death. Therefore this movement that we've been talking about, the movement of the subject or the self, the whole movement of belief, is merely a search for an alternative certainty. But there is no alternative certainty. So it is the non-acceptance of death, of our personal physical death or ending, that sets the movement going. And while we are thus moving, we can never find a thing, we can never meet, we can never communicate. We are like people trapped in cars speeding up and down the same motorway; the most we can do is offer a fleeting wave. It's only when that movement stops we can meet: meet each other, meet the birds, meet the beauty of nature, meet the ugliness of our built environment, meet the insanity of our own minds, and much, much more.

I've begun a new thread called 'Why are we afraid of death?' deliberately to delve into all this. But I don't mind carrying this on with you here.

Last edited by Tom (2012-02-24 09:48:27)