KFA - Krishnamurti Foundation of America

snguyen · 2012-07-30 13:32:47

JK “You need an innocent mind, a fresh mind, a mind which is not cluttered up with the known.”

W “If another tells you what your problem is in terms of the answer…”

S K tells you that the known is a hindrance to an innocent, fresh mind. The known with all of its continual worries and occupation clutters up the mind, corrupts its freshness and innocence. Here, I don’t see yet an answer away from the problem. I only see clearly that the known is a problem to the mind. Is the answer in the problem?

W “…and you do not know what the answer is, you will use that answer as a way of keeping your problem up and running.”

S If I project the answer away from the problem, which is the known, by imagine a certain unknown, it becomes an escape and therefore the problem is still there, up and running.

Therefore I work very hard to understand the known. My brother died and I feel a loss, a love towards him, but my action tells a different story: I did not and still don’t do anything in the action of love. Upon that I see very clearly that I only have self pity. That seeing has its immediate action. The same thing I act towards the known. I say I love the known: my children, my wife … but it is self pity. There is no true love, no true action of love but a self concern. Otherwise I would revolutionize life, act, change, shout and ruthlessly go at it. I don’t know yet what the unknown is, but I do have to clear up my perception of the known. And when the known is understood, it drops away in big chunks, its structure collapses, its collections emptied… and the mind finds itself in the unknown. Now it has no choice but to function in the unknown.

JK “An innocent mind is a mind which functions in the unknown, and dying to the known is the door to the unknown.”

S Dying to the known will come down to an absolute act supported by absolute understanding, which is intelligence. It is not an option because as intelligence grows, all darkness of confusion is dispelled. Any confusion will cause trouble, conflict or noise. And the mind will look deep into the cause.

JK “So, it is only a mind that has listened to and understood the challenge of death -it is only such a mind that can die to its own miseries and therefore be in a state of innocency. And, from that state of innocency, there is a totally different action altogether.”

W “I know, the description is not the thing, but what that means, as he is using it, can only be read if the problem has been solved.”

S That is true. You cannot project or imagine it. I mean you can if you want to lie. But we can just go along inquiring and describing it from one discovery to another but this does not mean any listener can just jump to it without dropping the other, the known, which is ever too heavy to make a jump.
It is never illogical or nonsensical to describe the unknown in order to point out the wrong activities of the known:

JK “The unknown is not measurable by the known. Time cannot measure the timeless, the eternal, that immensity which has no beginning and no end. But our minds are bound to the yardstick of yesterday, today, and tomorrow, and with that yardstick we try to inquire into the unknown, to measure that which is not measurable. And, when we try to measure something which is not measurable, we only get caught in words.”

S Therefore, I can say that it is possible to know time only when the mind is lost into a new quality where there is no sense of time at all to it. Then it knows time is not. For the moment, understand time and its qualities and structures until time comes to an ending. But when the mind is caught in time, it does not know about time.

snguyen · 2012-07-30 18:21:02

Often it is much easy to escape into ideas, belief or mere assertion, and say that I am free from the known. A serious mind will not accept such a theoretical or ideological escape from the known. K himself, or any great world teacher, comes back in true relationship with the known and transforms it.

In the known lies that great love from the heart of a seer. And with such inexhaustible love the great teachers work at the known, from the seeing from the unknown. The known is something very touchable, tangible, real fact and if the mind does not see and connect with it, the mind is lost in its own fancy.

Responsibility is the ability to respond. This ability grows with the validity of seeing, understanding, which is acting. It assures you that with understanding, the true ability to respond grows into a bigger and bigger reality. Responsibility gathers its strength from how true and deep you are connected to the known, how much you really are the world. Without knowing the known, your unknown has no true foundation; it becomes a childish escape.

joe · 2012-07-30 19:07:54

yes...so how is it we know the known? Is it something we think, something we perceive, something we are? Let's leave the unknown where it belongs and dig into the known. WHat do you say?

pitfalll · 2012-07-30 19:46:41

The known is a distorted version of events.

joe · 2012-07-30 20:15:42

yes, but si is saying to understand the distorted version of events. I am not certain I understand what he means by this yet but I think I do. In relationship there is the chance to go from distortion to understanding.

snguyen · 2012-07-30 20:20:16

What I am saying is, we have been looking at the known. The understanding of the known leads to certain freedom from the known. The mind feels the presence of something unknown. This mind then has energy, clear perception and it comes back to work on the known. It does not escape into a solitary existence. The known is the door to the unknown. And when some one makes it there, he/she comes back to work on the known that he/she is free from.

The more unknown you know, the more you are connected back to the known. There is a real relationship.

wilbro99 · 2012-07-30 21:21:28

Si, on your #6, I might put it in different words, but you have described the process as I know it.

WhiteShaman · 2012-07-30 22:48:34

snguyen wrote:
What I am saying is, we have been looking at the known. The understanding of the known leads to certain freedom from the known. The mind feels the presence of something unknown. This mind then has energy, clear perception and it comes back to work on the known. It does not escape into a solitary existence. The known is the door to the unknown. And when some one makes it there, he/she comes back to work on the known that he/she is free from.

The more unknown you know, the more you are connected back to the known. There is a real relationship.

'The mind feels the presence of something unknown.'

Can the mind "fake" this relationship IYO?

Last edited by WhiteShaman (2012-07-30 22:59:49)

kirsten · 2012-07-31 05:43:48

oh yes it can

awareness · 2012-07-31 05:52:03

It should not be arguing about words. surely there is a kind of "connection", for how else should compassion "understand" sorrow. compassion is precisely the ending of suffering, every ending of sorrow is compassion, any ending of the known is the unknown.

WhiteShaman · 2012-07-31 07:38:16

awareness wrote:
It should not be arguing about words. surely there is a kind of "connection", for how else should compassion "understand" sorrow. compassion is precisely the ending of suffering, every ending of sorrow is compassion, any ending of the known is the unknown.

What I observe in myself when I partake in the process of looking at a particular feeling, thought...be it anxiety or fear, in a given situation is that the process takes me to an understanding but then there seems to be a noticing of a tendency to want to grasp that understanding. This noticing, in recent days, has been followed by an inability to remember what was noticed or understood............in a good way.
Do you notice that desire to want to grasp understanding that arises during the process of "I" trying to understand "I"?

awareness · 2012-07-31 08:03:01

WhiteShaman wrote:
awareness wrote:
It should not be arguing about words. surely there is a kind of "connection", for how else should compassion "understand" sorrow. compassion is precisely the ending of suffering, every ending of sorrow is compassion, any ending of the known is the unknown.
What I observe in myself when I partake in the process of looking at a particular feeling, thought...be it anxiety or fear, in a given situation is that the process takes me to an understanding but then there seems to be a noticing of a tendency to want to grasp that understanding. This noticing, in recent days, has been followed by an inability to remember what was noticed or understood............in a good way.
Do you notice that desire to want to grasp understanding that arises during the process of "I" trying to understand "I"?

understanding is the ending of thought. once discovered the own limitation, the limititation in time, time is denied. that is denying of time, understanding, in which focussing of energy and therefore the explosion without direction of pattern takes place. the comprehension, that the explosions are of a constant nature has to take place, that the field of timelessness is only established, because of the ending of time. if there is not the comprehension of a constant transformation, of a constant enlightement, brain must produce a resistance against this new feeling, because it has not identified it as a secure movement. only, when brain is incoorporated that energy, it is not more only the observer, but the observed itself, because it is its own product, a product not touched by time. so understanding occurs within the brain-body-interaction and thought cannot understand.

WhiteShaman · 2012-07-31 08:23:32

"so understanding occurs within the brain-body-interaction and thought cannot understand." Awareness

See to me, while that sounds like a good explanation, it too is seen by "I" as a type of grasping.
Why not just describe what actually happens and leave it there:
What seems like an understanding occurs and there is an inability to grasp it. The understanding itself seems to be the last thread of the particular thought to disappear. What is left is what is left.
You seem to have set the understanding on a pedestal.

awareness · 2012-07-31 08:30:14

you can use other words for. it is not the word, which is true. again, thought has nothing to do with, it cannot touch that, which is untouched by time, thought cannot produce it. it is a life, in which seeking is ending, in which there is only observing, observing in which there is the ending of the observer, and therefore the observed, just observing.

WhiteShaman · 2012-07-31 09:22:57

awareness wrote:
you can use other words for. it is not the word, which is true. again, thought has nothing to do with, it cannot touch that, which is untouched by time, thought cannot produce it. it is a life, in which seeking is ending, in which there is only observing, observing in which there is the ending of the observer, and therefore the observed, just observing.

I'm afraid you are not hearing me because you are trying to teach me. I'm not looking for answers. I'm just following JK's advice which is to know yourself is to study how you relate to things (ideas, family, etc), and sharing that.

awareness · 2012-07-31 12:01:27

WhiteShaman wrote:
awareness wrote:
you can use other words for. it is not the word, which is true. again, thought has nothing to do with, it cannot touch that, which is untouched by time, thought cannot produce it. it is a life, in which seeking is ending, in which there is only observing, observing in which there is the ending of the observer, and therefore the observed, just observing.
I'm afraid you are not hearing me because you are trying to teach me. I'm not looking for answers. I'm just following JK's advice which is to know yourself is to study how you relate to things (ideas, family, etc), and sharing that.

noone is here who teach something, its sharing. but one can interprete in, what his/her conditions allowed

awareness · 2012-07-31 12:03:44

teaching and learning are one and the same, it is the action, which is life itself

Last edited by awareness (2012-07-31 12:04:12)

WhiteShaman · 2012-07-31 12:13:29

awareness wrote:
WhiteShaman wrote:
awareness wrote:
you can use other words for. it is not the word, which is true. again, thought has nothing to do with, it cannot touch that, which is untouched by time, thought cannot produce it. it is a life, in which seeking is ending, in which there is only observing, observing in which there is the ending of the observer, and therefore the observed, just observing.
I'm afraid you are not hearing me because you are trying to teach me. I'm not looking for answers. I'm just following JK's advice which is to know yourself is to study how you relate to things (ideas, family, etc), and sharing that.
noone is here who teach something, its sharing. but one can interprete in, what his/her conditions allowed

Never mind..............

snguyen · 2012-07-31 13:56:50

WhiteShaman wrote:
snguyen wrote:
What I am saying is, we have been looking at the known. The understanding of the known leads to certain freedom from the known. The mind feels the presence of something unknown. This mind then has energy, clear perception and it comes back to work on the known. It does not escape into a solitary existence. The known is the door to the unknown. And when some one makes it there, he/she comes back to work on the known that he/she is free from.

The more unknown you know, the more you are connected back to the known. There is a real relationship.
'The mind feels the presence of something unknown.'

Can the mind "fake" this relationship IYO?

Let’s say that my whole life is into it and therefore I don’t want the childish impression on anyone. Also let’s say that I am very honest in the journey to understand myself because I don’t want to be deceived. Yet during the journey I will run into hundreds of illusions, self-deceptions, seeing the false as the true… The more I run through these illusions and deceptions and uncover them, see the false, the impermanent as they are and be free from them, to a point where there is no more desire to get somewhere, then there is a deep silence. This deep silence is a state, a reality of not-knowing which is incredible, not the pretense of not-knowing by thought, and the mind cannot shake it off: this quality of unknown, deep in the mind, the brain, the nerves, the being, the eyes, the calmness of all.

So, this quality of mind is either there or not, in different intensity and reality depending on the mind’s innocence and depth, or one fakes it to get some pleasure out of impressing others (which is really trivial).

snguyen · 2012-07-31 14:01:00

kirsten wrote:
oh yes it can

One knows the fake thing and so one quickly says yes, one can fake it. But can one fake something one doesn't know about?

Yes, you can fake what you hear or read about, but it will expose in contradition. Therefore, know yourself deeply.

snguyen · 2012-07-31 14:15:40

WhiteShaman wrote:
awareness wrote:
It should not be arguing about words. surely there is a kind of "connection", for how else should compassion "understand" sorrow. compassion is precisely the ending of suffering, every ending of sorrow is compassion, any ending of the known is the unknown.
What I observe in myself when I partake in the process of looking at a particular feeling, thought...be it anxiety or fear, in a given situation is that the process takes me to an understanding but then there seems to be a noticing of a tendency to want to grasp that understanding. This noticing, in recent days, has been followed by an inability to remember what was noticed or understood............in a good way.
Do you notice that desire to want to grasp understanding that arises during the process of "I" trying to understand "I"?

Very true and encouraging. If you truly watch and learn deeply yourself it will reveal understandings. If these are true, clear understandings, they cannot be grasped and reused because that will block further understandings, and you are stuck again in limitation. Limitation, stagnation, security, possession of something pleasant, is the nature of thought. But upon discovering a beautiful understanding and the next day it is gone, you are left with more passion to pursue it, to investigate more until the day when you see it all and it all drops away as a veil of the dust of experiences gone in the wind, the mind becomes stable in deep silence.

WhiteShaman · 2012-07-31 14:24:45

snguyen wrote:
kirsten wrote:
oh yes it can
But can one fake something one doesn't know about?

Do you think that one can 'create' even the state of deep silence and of not-knowing that is incredible?
See the mind is amazing that way in my experieince.
I even brought into reality a being, if you will, from another place, dimension, thru the desire to do so. This was witnessed with my eyes and by another.
It just seems to me that if you can grasp it and describe it (ie: incredible), then it is no different than anything else. What seems more correct would be to say that it can be incredible.
Just sharing..thanks for sharing too.

WhiteShaman · 2012-07-31 14:34:19

snguyen wrote:
[But upon discovering a beautiful understanding and the next day it is gone, you are left with more passion to pursue it, to investigate more until the day when you see it all and it all drops away as a veil of the dust of experiences gone in the wind, the mind becomes stable in deep silence.

See for me, to read and even consider such words is an obstacle. I find that any ideas of "the day it all drops away, etc", to be in conflict with something within me. Almost like i expect any supposed day to come and go un-noticed. So when I read such things, I tend to block them out.
Nothing against you or your words..............just sharing.
This is why teaching turns me off as well..........I don't want answer and I don't expect them so when someone has them, I tend to see confict there and block their words out.
The conflict is not with me though. It is seen as an observation of the one teaching.
Again, no offense, just sharing

snguyen · 2012-07-31 16:19:35

WhiteShaman wrote:
See for me, to read and even consider such words is an obstacle. I find that any ideas of "the day it all drops away, etc", to be in conflict with something within me. Almost like i expect any supposed day to come and go un-noticed. So when I read such things, I tend to block them out.

There is a point where desire is not when the thing is with you: happiness, being... You don't known when to expect it but apparently for now it is there, the desire to catch the thing that is not imprisonable.

Then, you are just to be with it. To be with fear, with uncertainty, with hurt, with sorrow, without the desire to distort them any way at all.

snguyen · 2012-07-31 16:27:29

WhiteShaman wrote:
snguyen wrote:
kirsten wrote:
oh yes it can
But can one fake something one doesn't know about?
Do you think that one can 'create' even the state of deep silence and of not-knowing that is incredible?
See the mind is amazing that way in my experieince.
I even brought into reality a being, if you will, from another place, dimension, thru the desire to do so. This was witnessed with my eyes and by another.
It just seems to me that if you can grasp it and describe it (ie: incredible), then it is no different than anything else. What seems more correct would be to say that it can be incredible.
Just sharing..thanks for sharing too.

Now if you don't know anything about it, it is very difficult to "see" it. Then just go back to why you can't see it and work from there. That is, to know one's sorrow, frustration, boredom, fear, escapes, lack of energy... From my very early days of getting into this, what I was concerned with then was fear, psychological discomfort and boredom. Back then it had no meaning whatever to talk about anything deeper.

KFA - Krishnamurti Foundation of America

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#1 2012-07-30 13:32:47

Understand the Known.

#2 2012-07-30 18:21:02

Re: Understand the Known.

#3 2012-07-30 19:07:54

Re: Understand the Known.

#4 2012-07-30 19:46:41

Re: Understand the Known.

#5 2012-07-30 20:15:42

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#6 2012-07-30 20:20:16

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#7 2012-07-30 21:21:28

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#8 2012-07-30 22:48:34

Re: Understand the Known.

snguyen wrote:

#9 2012-07-31 05:43:48

Re: Understand the Known.

#10 2012-07-31 05:52:03

Re: Understand the Known.

#11 2012-07-31 07:38:16

Re: Understand the Known.

awareness wrote:

#12 2012-07-31 08:03:01

Re: Understand the Known.

WhiteShaman wrote:

awareness wrote:

#13 2012-07-31 08:23:32

Re: Understand the Known.

#14 2012-07-31 08:30:14

Re: Understand the Known.

#15 2012-07-31 09:22:57

Re: Understand the Known.

awareness wrote:

#16 2012-07-31 12:01:27

Re: Understand the Known.

WhiteShaman wrote:

awareness wrote:

#17 2012-07-31 12:03:44

Re: Understand the Known.

#18 2012-07-31 12:13:29

Re: Understand the Known.

awareness wrote:

WhiteShaman wrote:

awareness wrote:

#19 2012-07-31 13:56:50

Re: Understand the Known.

WhiteShaman wrote:

snguyen wrote:

#20 2012-07-31 14:01:00

Re: Understand the Known.

kirsten wrote:

#21 2012-07-31 14:15:40

Re: Understand the Known.

WhiteShaman wrote:

awareness wrote:

#22 2012-07-31 14:24:45

Re: Understand the Known.

snguyen wrote:

kirsten wrote:

#23 2012-07-31 14:34:19

Re: Understand the Known.

snguyen wrote:

#24 2012-07-31 16:19:35

Re: Understand the Known.

WhiteShaman wrote:

#25 2012-07-31 16:27:29

Re: Understand the Known.

WhiteShaman wrote:

snguyen wrote:

kirsten wrote:

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