KFA - Krishnamurti Foundation of America

as above so below

suzakico wrote:

kirsten wrote:

toad eden likes to jump in the pond with a huge noisy splash

LOL

Why don't you take care of him?
Just reading his post, it seems like that may be the best scenario although I am not sure if more breadcrumbs may spread over the pond. 

In the mean time, I will go over to the other pond,
Kio

Yes, I suggest the kiddy pond....where all the other intellectual masturbators hang out. You will fit right in.  Not to worry though....a couple more decades of Vipassana and some of the bullshit fragmentation swirling in your head will start to subside....though probably not.

Last edited by Eden (2012-05-31 23:27:14)

sds wrote:

suzakico wrote:

Yes, Zen and K, not K and Zen...

Intuitively, and therefore not supported by any statistics, (I do not know if there is any), I sense that the "success rate" of "those really serious" people encountering/stumbling into the "awakening" experience may be higher in Zen and perhaps other "brute force" path than those through reading, pondering and discussing K's work endlessly.  Also, my gut feel is that (again too subjective I admit, sorry) people who are likely to prefer discussion and going through argument to search for solution may not be "possibly" working hard enough - as if to put one's whole existence (i.e., til the great death of ego so to speak) to go through the impasse for that unexpected moment to come. 

Again, I say this from my intuition and not much more - well also only based on my humble and limited background (so you do not have to give my words any importance, and may prefer to just ignore, saying "what is Zen got to do with K or something like that).  Yet, I also wonder such might be the point where K dismissed the group (I heard this specific historical incident) so that his group would not develop some circle of people with twisted interest in intellectual masturbation (I however admit I may be the only one ignorant to not to realize wonderful, accomplished and awakened individuals produced from the path of K).  BTW, there is famous line in Vimalakīrti sutra where it says something like, "If you seek for it (Law), you will not find it.  (Yet, overhearing K, the Dali Lama is known to have said that K is like Vimalakīrti.  Note here that this sutra is favored in Zen circle traditionally...  It is a fun read, because of the irony of authorities put into the impasse brought forth by V.)

While this may be seen an unwelcome thread, yet this may be still meaningful if not for seeing the impact of like throwing a stone into the pond to see what may or may not come out.  BTW, I liked the discussion of K and Bohm.  Also I enjoyed reading K (to "confirm" IT - BTW, all sutra, etc. are good to confirm the experience...after having one.  And that is the paradox of it all as if to say if you realize and confirm it that is good, but if you don't know it and become stuck in the endless search, perhaps not.  (so...What K left behind may be seen as a giant Koan to bring those interested into the .... pond to swim around, .. or to be drowned...)

Having said thus far, I also admit brute force approach has its own limitation.  Yet at least Zen may point this: when you hit the impasse, well, there is the entrance.  Or it points something like (as in Tao Te Ching) if it is not laughed at, or ridiculed that is not Zen or Dao/Tao.

As irresponsible as I am and as playful as I am (yet concerned I might add) just few days after signing up to this forum (I heard about this site from my old friend), I simply entertained the thought of writing this up for whoever may be interested.

Good day, and good journey!
Kio

Nice to meet you Kio. I enjoyed reading this post.

I am not a Buddhist, but I have read some on Buddhism, especially Theravada Buddhism.

Are you a Zen Buddhist?

How much have you read K and what is your interest in K?

One of my favorite dialogues is K discussing with Walpola Rahuala, a Buddhist Monk. After talking quite a while comparing K with the Buddha and highlighting their similarities, K says to him, "Sir, why do you compare?" That always stuck with me.

But I do like to compare and like to compare the Buddha with K. I see many similarities with their teachings.

I like your premise above and find it interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Thanks for a feedback, it helps me to feel that I might possibly be able to communicate to a certain degree.  I do what I can and welcome criticism to keep me in check.  My words, ideas, etc. may be quite limiting and the idea here is one of (at least my, or possibly mutual) learning and growing in various manners, I believe.  I do not want to engage myself in what may be seen as negative or futile discussion but that again is my judgment/limitation.  Right or wrong, I accept the blame.  Life goes on given the situation, I do my best and the rest is taken care by the divine if I may say so.

I am not sure if I may be qualified as a Zen Buddhist.  I recently compared my spiritual experience with Eckhart Tolle in my blog, if you are interested. (http://newherosjourney.blogspot.com/201 … itual.html)

I went through years to check what the experience meant as Tolle did.  I resonate what he says and I see many teachings are pointing to the same point.  K has his own way to point to that. While I could confirm my sense/view/experience/experiential wisdom with his words, I somehow prefer simpler way of pointing to "what is".  Perhaps more importantly, I check myself as if I go through that experience in somewhat similar manner every time I get into the bind/delusion and come out of it.  (The fundamental process seems universal)

[One of my favorite dialogues is K discussing with Walpola Rahuala, a Buddhist Monk. After talking quite a while comparing K with the Buddha and highlighting their similarities, K says to him, "Sir, why do you compare?" That always stuck with me.]

Again, after my 'experience,' I did compare my experience with others, trying to find the meaning,  and it was good for me.  I still read and confirm as I may be shallow/weak in certain areas and I see it in myself daily.  In the blog I mentioned above, I said that I have weakness compared to his 'definite' statement.

[Useless continuous noise, or thinking, came to an end
(In my case, there are noises/delusions popping up every now and then, but I can see the end/resolution of it fairly soon, e.g., minute to hours, usually)]  (---from my blog page)

On this point above, however, I have a sense/gut feel that says I am fine with it, and I do not seek for anything.  (as many know, seeking mind is the problem)  This, I take as not negative.  It is like, because I have delusion, I can appreciate more re: what I go through in life.  Even if the situation I go through may be tough at times and I may have sleepless night (more often in the past year or so as I started to live in 'this world' coming out of having spent a simple life for years), I do not run away from life and willingly face the hardship/'reality'.  (I do not know of any other way but I face it and come out of it.  I am fairly confident that I know the way - like sila-samadhi-panna, or living truthfully, or through acceptance and maintaining a calm and quiet mind, I am fairly confident that I can go through all.  (meaning I need to be ego-less, of course; i.e., paradox)

Yet, the test is on all the time.  I am a human.  I have weakness, ignorance, greed, and anger that pops up.   But hey, I might even sense that perhaps to know the weakness may lead to strength.  It is like delusion is enlightenment.  In paradox, I see the light...  And I see it in my mind's eyes often enough....

Well I rambled enough...  hope you take it with the grain of salt,
Thank you,
Kio

sds wrote:

Hi Kio,

I did read your blog about Tolle and your similar experience. Some people think Tolle is a charlatan and others think he is enlightened and some compare him to K. There is quite a varied opinion about Tolle.

I read Power of Now and his other book and went to a few Tolle groups by me for awhile. We would listen to one of his talks and sit in silence and discuss it afterwards a little. It was okay, but even back then I could see how many were turning him into a authority.

K was very leery of experiences, even though he had his own. Some spiritual traditions including Zen I believe tell you similar, to not get caught up in experiences, for they come and go. As for myself, I dont have to worry about clinging to any experience, because I really have not had any. Maybe that is good, maybe not, I dont know.

I am human too, and even though I have seen through a lot, I still get caught up in a lot too. K was very human too, had a human side. We tend to mythologize or exaggerate when it comes to our spiritual teachers, heroes. We tend to make them not human, and different from us. When in actuality, they are not so different from us, with many of the same flaws and human foibles.

Hi sds (btw, where do you live? I am curious...)

[When in actuality, they are not so different from us, with many of the same flaws and human foibles]

This is subtle I think.  I read Kornfield's book on K and dirty laundry or something like that, pointing his affair with secretary if I remember correctly.  There are form and substance, let's say... We can argue about form (same with Picasso, womanizer?!) and yes there is certain view that says and I tend to agree - pointing to certain character as human living in the society to be a role model so to speak... (Osho and some others...?!)

But there is that internal stuff.. which may say that form does not apply if you live from the ... how can I say... spiritual source or something like that.  It is as if liberation is like representation of absolute (as in God.?!) and some may play on that.. (also failure on the other side - people/admirer not being able to see clearly and make them as if they are God so to speak...)

and that is the danger of religion connected to human weakness (blind faith; playing on unconsciousness/faith etc.)  Diasetz Suzuki points to compassion and wisdom to be manifested as natural and to be seen in the person's character.  (Jinkaku, in Japanese)  Confucius seem to point to the same - at age 70... basically everything become effortless effort as if no ego but follow the laws of human and nature. 

How does internal connect to the external? ... spiritual to society's way so to speak, not to say society's way is always good, however.  So, like the middle way between conscious and unconscious... each path may need to be found according to the specifics of the situation.

Not sure if I am making sense... to say this way.  But I think in that way... and therefore when I say "living truthfully" I want me to live accommodating those points.  So, living among the admirers may be a danger for 'guru's.'  if he is ... (while remain to be human with intrinsic characters ) to behave ... as the authority.  I like genuine human quality in that person, or at least deep understanding of it coming out as compassion/wisdom.

Kio

if I tell you you are right does it confirm your feeling?  If I tell you you are wrong does it do the same?  So far tonight you are taking little snippets of conversations and using them to convey your point.  Is that too verdict-like?

suzakico wrote:

RJ wrote:

suzakico wrote:

[I don't get into bed on the first date.]

LOLOL

Thanks (?!) for that!  But just so you know that I do not have much depth...
at least that is how I feel here and now.
what you see is what you get. 

Hmm... what I may mean is (see  I am shallow)...
I cannot carry many bags.  To heavy!

Does that mean I get into bed on the first date..?
I can give a rather recent story but ... may not be appropriate here.

(right, I have some depth left in me still.  Ha!)
Kio

I gather you are wonderfully wealthy (the travel, long holidays, diving etc.)
so what do you do to redress that imbalance? (aside from pretending to be superficial)

Yes, you are right, I am a hypocrate.  (and full of paradox)
That makes even more difficult to explain who I am.
but I can try.. for you and me (if you believe it)

OK, I agree that I am relatively wealthy.
Wilbro99 came to my house some 13 years ago, the first time we met
- perhaps one year before my spiritual experience in 2000.
He saw me living in the gated community with this and that...
and commented something I no longer remember.

Ahh.. later I visited his house, he said.. (this I remember)
he expected me driving up to his house with a Rolls Royce   LOL

You know what?
I still drive that '87 Honda hatchback I bought in 1986
to go surfing, diving, etc. and have no desire to sell.  I love the car.
It is reliable, can get dirty, I need to clean up only few times a year.. etc.

It even has a dent on the side as someone hit the last year.
(Ins. co. did not want to fix it because the damage was greater than the resale value of my car. I got $1,500 check for it)

A side story here.. pondering what to do with the large dent...
I put a sign next to it; "Impermanence"
(more story at my facebook if interested: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=775288409 )

Anyway...that is the story of the car I drive.

You know.. I must be very "cheap" - an extreme case.  But pragmatism is in me, if I may say so.  I wrote a book on waste elimination called "New Manufacturing Challenge" - re: Toyota Production System.  It has a lot to do with it... but not all, perhaps...

And yes, connection to Zen is there.. Like story of monks not wasting anything, I could resonate to that.  Life in Zen temple is extreme.. i.e., have minimum of what you need to get the job done, i.e., Satori.

The money I made, I was largely lucky but with some intuitive sense.  The house I bought was mainly for investment.  But I always turned off unused light left by my wife, which is a story of its own.

I have no wish to waste money, possess anything unnecessary (perhaps except for investment for future use), stupid I am... I just want to give all away when I die, the best possible way I can think of donating.. at the moment is California Vipassana Center where I had that spiritual experience in 2000.

I believe that mind is the cause of human problem, so putting money sent for poverty may be good and understandable.  But I do not wish to treat the symptom.  The cause is in our own mind, as I see it.

I can give more stories but would be boring.

Bottom line, I live in the paradox...

Here is a Koan I took from the words of Picasso:
He said something like.. "I like having money but want to live like a poor man."

I think the idea is to live fully, creatively and not to be used by the money...
I heard he was full of paradox... When you read his word (check: quote from picasso),
I found he 'understood' zen.

So what? Back to your... re: superficial living.
My comment may be; appearance may not reflect his heart...

But like you say, I may be lying...if I say that.

My own answer has been this:

After that spiritual experience in 2000, I promised to live truthfully.
I monitored my behavior and reflected that through what I call now, "Life Profile" (see my blog: http://newherosjourney.blogspot.com/  or video in youtube )

Am I succeeding???
To me, this is a continuous process.

Do I yet behave arrogant, and ego-driven?
I am sure that happens... I know I have to fight... (without fighting)
or it happens without knowing so, perhaps...

So, it is a moment to moment practice.
But I have some idea... and I keep working on it.
I certainly remain to be a student of life.

Because I know it when I don't do things right, I get punished...LOL
and there are many lessons I am going through...never ending.

Lucky me as human... I get the other side as well when I come out of it

Yet, the bright side is that there is that infinite light (if I may say so)
as if it is guiding me.

I hope I answered your question... and answered to myself as well,
Kio

By the way, Kio, I really enjoyed reading this post of yours. Thanks for sharing such personal stuff.

I live in Phoenix, Arizona area. The hot desert. It is 110 degrees already. I have been to California many times on little vacations and enjoy Ventura, Santa Barbara, Ojai, Encinitas, Carlsbad, and Pacific Palisades (Paramahansa Yogananandas Lake Shrine I just love).

I was off of here for a week because my friend/girlfriend was visiting and staying here and she is not into K or any of these spiritual forums. So I stayed away out of respect and gave her all of my time.

Before she came, RJ told me I was violent and said something like I am going to do great inreparable harm to her on this trip. Because I do not truly love her, in the sense of true love, and yet I try to be loving and kind to her as best as I can. I am very human and did yell at her sometimes, raise my voice that is, show my irritation, but overall I really cared for her. I am human and do not beat myself up for being human, violent, not perfect.

I watched all this in myself and did not censor myself. I immediately registered or saw the violence that I was exhibiting towards her. She left this morning and told me it was a very good week and she thanked me for all. She told me I was very loving and went out of my way for her. That made me feel good. Even with all my flaws and mistakes she still truly loved being here with me for the week.

I imagine even K, when he had a girlfriend was similar. He had many moments of great love and caring and affection for his partner, but many moments of irritation, anger, violence too, over the little human things we all do that rub the other the wrong way.

I did read that Jack Kornfield book you mentioned, about After the ecstasy, do the laundry or some title like that. It is a very good book and even mentions some Buddhist teachers who slept with students, etc. Very eye opening and reveals a lot about the humanness of teachers.

I do not know anything about the martial arts, but I have read and resonate and like Lao Tzu a lot, the Tao Te Ching. That is very good stuff too.

Thanks again for all of your personal sharing and it is nice to talk to somebody without insults and all the name calling and attacks for a change on this forum. Welcome again, and much respect to you...

Last edited by sds (2012-05-31 23:40:59)

love

Two people meet
both confident with self-knowledge
They start out
connecting, making ties
organize it, get closer

Sometimes one of them
sometimes both
can see the end
wouldn't mind the end
right from the start

Wilbro-san

From the archives, I found the attached below:
http://web.archive.org/web/200702030845 … ki.has.it/

this correspondence took place right before your trip to see me in PP followed by my trip over the Sepalveda path to meet you!  It was in the year 1998 or 1999.  Then, I went to Vipassana in 2000.

(IF interested, in that URL, The file name is:
Wilbro Correspondence (1) About Process of Inquiry, Self-Clarification Process, Brain-Heart System
This is within the sub title: Dialogue I had on the journey.
BTW, I do remember I went all of these so diligently then.  And this is before my vipassana experience.  Now, that tells me something right there!)


<<Wibro>>

From Daisetz,
"Defeating the enemy does not mean saving our self nor answering the question. This is because self
can only exist by having non-self, and this non-self is the enemy. The self is the creator of enemy. The questioner will be a questioner no matter how far he goes. He remains to be the creator of questions."

There is a self that can only exist by having a non-self that is the enemy, yet this very same self whose existence depends upon having a non-self is the self that creates the non-self in the first place. This self must therefore create itself by first creating a non-self, and it must do so in the dark to shine the light upon itself. This can only mean that the self it sees is not itself, but a reflection of not-itself. Out of this can rise only one structure, a Self and a self.

The question now remains as to which one one is to identify with? Since the creator of the question has created the structure to answer the question, if the questioner identifies with either, the questioner has created the enemy. The only valid answer is rhubarb pulp.

==

<<From me>>

Well done.

Now, can I hear the rhubarb sing? May I see the rhubarb dance?

==

Sure thing Kio. Since we do not have a Streaming Video feed here, you will have to imagine this; the rhubarb sings opera and dances with three feet. And a good morning to you from the SFV.

==

Does that mean rhubarb is presential, breaking up the temporal, as it shed the light to the life on the second floor? Or is it breaking the vows of Bottisattva while puking all over?

BTW, rhubarb does not have any memory, does it? If so who recognizes rhubarb dancing?

* What is SFV anyway?
==

Important things first: Over the hill from the PP lies the end of that sentimental journey, the SFV.

In answer to those two questions, I'll choose both at once.

I would say rhubarb has memory, but recognizes it as the act of remembering, and when dancing, memory is not required unless the dance is one of remembering.

--------

So that was...the year around 1998-9.
I do not have much desire to read what I wrote then...
yet the history is recorded on the web archive anyway.

and Sepalveda path is still there,
So, right after that exchange, I went through the path to SFV
and continued the journey onward...

It seems as if that event took place yesterday.

So, wilbro-san,
let us have a moment of eternity
and please, have a cup of tea as I do so...

who knows edger-hell, sue dragon, and others may join with us to commemorate this event,

Kio

willy, if I make it out to the san fernando valley I am coming over for tomatoes and rhubarb.

it is free and can be fun, what is the problem?

joe wrote:

it is free and can be fun, what is the problem?

excess wind is mainly a problem for the people around its source rather than its manufacturer,
per se

joe wrote:

riddle me this RJ--is this not a social outlet for you?

no,
but perhaps that thought you had the other day (yesterday?) that it might be time to leave yourself was worth giving a little more breathing space (hint: it may be necessary to release some wind in order to do just that) though of course that is entirely up to you.

but anyway since you are asking, remind me why you are here again?