KFA - Krishnamurti Foundation of America

suzakico · 2012-05-28 04:36:48

Yes, Zen and K, not K and Zen...

Intuitively, and therefore not supported by any statistics, (I do not know if there is any), I sense that the "success rate" of "those really serious" people encountering/stumbling into the "awakening" experience may be higher in Zen and perhaps other "brute force" path than those through reading, pondering and discussing K's work endlessly. Also, my gut feel is that (again too subjective I admit, sorry) people who are likely to prefer discussion and going through argument to search for solution may not be "possibly" working hard enough - as if to put one's whole existence (i.e., til the great death of ego so to speak) to go through the impasse for that unexpected moment to come.

Again, I say this from my intuition and not much more - well also only based on my humble and limited background (so you do not have to give my words any importance, and may prefer to just ignore, saying "what is Zen got to do with K or something like that). Yet, I also wonder such might be the point where K dismissed the group (I heard this specific historical incident) so that his group would not develop some circle of people with twisted interest in intellectual masturbation (I however admit I may be the only one ignorant to not to realize wonderful, accomplished and awakened individuals produced from the path of K). BTW, there is famous line in Vimalakīrti sutra where it says something like, "If you seek for it (Law), you will not find it. (Yet, overhearing K, the Dali Lama is known to have said that K is like Vimalakīrti. Note here that this sutra is favored in Zen circle traditionally... It is a fun read, because of the irony of authorities put into the impasse brought forth by V.)

While this may be seen an unwelcome thread, yet this may be still meaningful if not for seeing the impact of like throwing a stone into the pond to see what may or may not come out. BTW, I liked the discussion of K and Bohm. Also I enjoyed reading K (to "confirm" IT - BTW, all sutra, etc. are good to confirm the experience...after having one. And that is the paradox of it all as if to say if you realize and confirm it that is good, but if you don't know it and become stuck in the endless search, perhaps not. (so...What K left behind may be seen as a giant Koan to bring those interested into the .... pond to swim around, .. or to be drowned...)

Having said thus far, I also admit brute force approach has its own limitation. Yet at least Zen may point this: when you hit the impasse, well, there is the entrance. Or it points something like (as in Tao Te Ching) if it is not laughed at, or ridiculed that is not Zen or Dao/Tao.

As irresponsible as I am and as playful as I am (yet concerned I might add) just few days after signing up to this forum (I heard about this site from my old friend), I simply entertained the thought of writing this up for whoever may be interested.

Good day, and good journey!
Kio

=============
* Reference:

Facebook; http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=775288409
Webpage, NHJ: http://suzakico.wix.com/newhero#!Home/c1go3
Blog: http://newherosjourney.blogspot.com/
Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/suzakico?feature=mhee

* Some notable posts (from this thread):

#193-198: Osho and K

* Some notable posts (from "compassion and wisdom - poetry and K" thread):

#88 -: Aikido
#148/1499: My awakening experience, its analysis (with wilbro), Comparison with Eckhart Tolle, my brief background/orientation on this forum

Last edited by suzakico (2012-06-14 11:22:56)

joe · 2012-05-28 07:50:33

Good morning Kio...here is my Zen daily calendar quote for today, I thought it fit into your post well---"A language is a map of our failures". I will throw that into the stew you have cooking and see if it adds to the flavor.

Jayaraj · 2012-05-28 07:50:39

What is Zen meditation please? What is described as meditation?

Brute force can't do it. Because brute force is the will. And will means the functioning of the old.

So the question to raise is- have those who say they achieved change through brute force really achieved what they claimed to have achieved?

Last edited by Jayaraj (2012-05-28 07:52:00)

suzakico · 2012-05-28 09:33:37

Jayaraj wrote:
What is Zen meditation please? What is described as meditation?

Brute force can't do it. Because brute force is the will. And will means the functioning of the old.

So the question to raise is- have those who say they achieved change through brute force really achieved what they claimed to have achieved?

Hi, welcome and if you stay here, pls consider this before you open your mouth...

"Keep questioning within yourself and when you cannot go any further, you may start to understand what "brute force" may mean."

Good day, good life,
Kio

suzakico · 2012-05-28 09:42:11

joe wrote:
Good morning Kio...here is my Zen daily calendar quote for today, I thought it fit into your post well---"A language is a map of our failures". I will throw that into the stew you have cooking and see if it adds to the flavor.

Hi, a post from Ohio has a flavor of cornfield... LOL
The stew may taste a bit.. well... dusty, or is it perhaps the taste of brute force...???

I just wish it has more of.... blissful flavor. So pls try again later if you will.
Good morning, good day, good journey,
Kio

joe · 2012-05-28 09:45:28

suzakico wrote:
joe wrote:
Good morning Kio...here is my Zen daily calendar quote for today, I thought it fit into your post well---"A language is a map of our failures". I will throw that into the stew you have cooking and see if it adds to the flavor.
Hi, a post from Ohio has a flavor of cornfield... LOL
The stew may taste a bit.. well... dusty, or is it perhaps the taste of brute force...???

I just wish it has more of.... blissful flavor. So pls try again later if you will.
Good morning, good day, good journey,
Kio

I waited a moment after reading it so it is later now....now kio, just because I am from ohio does not mean I fit into your idea of cornfields. I am a bit confused why you are looking for sweetness and talking about Zen.

suzakico · 2012-05-28 10:00:35

joe wrote:
suzakico wrote:
joe wrote:
Good morning Kio...here is my Zen daily calendar quote for today, I thought it fit into your post well---"A language is a map of our failures". I will throw that into the stew you have cooking and see if it adds to the flavor.
Hi, a post from Ohio has a flavor of cornfield... LOL
The stew may taste a bit.. well... dusty, or is it perhaps the taste of brute force...???

I just wish it has more of.... blissful flavor. So pls try again later if you will.
Good morning, good day, good journey,
Kio
I waited a moment after reading it so it is later now....now kio, just because I am from ohio does not mean I fit into your idea of cornfields. I am a bit confused why you are looking for sweetness and talking about Zen.

Was I looking for it? Hmmm I did not know that.
Thank you for telling me, but sorry if I confused you.
Now tell me if I meant it.

BTW pls do not take my words too seriously...
I just thought, yes.... I thought playfulness might be a spirit of fun and creativity
Kio

suzakico · 2012-05-28 10:06:49

Joe, I saw your webpage, it says, "Turning imagination into reality"
I like that....

Imagination is power...
I like the spirit of Einstein...
Also what he said something like..
Asking the right question is 95% of solving problem.

Hmmm
A taste of ..."Bliss"? LOL
Good day,
Kio

joe · 2012-05-28 10:07:09

and I agree which is why I entered in the fashion I did, throwing veggies in the pot for fun, even though the quote was adding bitter greens...no worries kio, do not take my words too seriously either.

I have no idea if you meant it or not, only following the words used...wishing for blissful flavor was my crumb trail.

joe · 2012-05-28 10:13:17

kio wrote:
Joe, I saw your webpage, it says, "Turning imagination into reality"
I like that....

Imagination is power...
I like the spirit of Einstein...
Also what he said something like..
Asking the right question is 95% of solving problem.

In my business of custom residential building if I do not read the client accurately I can not build what suits them best...so understanding imagination, when to follow and when to shift to the practical, is paramount. Many people know what they want but are not able to express it well so it takes time and listening in order to see that their dog is aging and needs a lifted food bowl area, that their feet are small and they take small steps, or that their child will likely take after the paternal grandfather in size so better fit accordingly for the long haul. Whatever it is, the context drives the limo. I have used this line many times here but I do not think many understand what I mean by it. Perhaps this will help clarify.

suzakico · 2012-05-28 10:16:00

joe wrote:
and I agree which is why I entered in the fashion I did, throwing veggies in the pot for fun, even though the quote was adding bitter greens...no worries kio, do not take my words too seriously either.

I have no idea if you meant it or not, only following the words used...wishing for blissful flavor was my crumb trail.

I checked and found this..."On a Web site, a breadcrumb trail is a navigation tool that allows a user to see where the current page is in relation to the Web site's hierarchy. The term breadcrumb trail comes from the story of Hansel and Gretel, who left a trail of breadcrumbs as they walked through the forest so they could trace their way back home."

Interesting...and thx for the good flavor of "Impermanence" LOL
Looks like I can learn a lot (or play a lot) here! and keep my brain ... relatively young! while it lasts...
Thx,
Kio

suzakico · 2012-05-28 10:22:23

joe wrote:
kio wrote:
Joe, I saw your webpage, it says, "Turning imagination into reality"
I like that....

Imagination is power...
I like the spirit of Einstein...
Also what he said something like..
Asking the right question is 95% of solving problem.
In my business of custom residential building if I do not read the client accurately I can not build what suits them best...so understanding imagination, when to follow and when to shift to the practical, is paramount. Many people know what they want but are not able to express it well so it takes time and listening in order to see that their dog is aging and needs a lifted food bowl area, that their feet are small and they take small steps, or that their child will likely take after the paternal grandfather in size so better fit accordingly for the long haul. Whatever it is, the context drives the limo. I have used this line many times here but I do not think many understand what I mean by it. Perhaps this will help clarify.

I picture your process as following the bliss... detecting/capturing the sensation of what people want, as well as wood, ground, materials, etc., want (to be used)... Also, you have to listen to the regulatory people as well.. to keep them happy.

So, I am sure it is a holistic, artistic, yet supported by mind(brain/logic) kind of process where all is connected to bring out the blissful sensation...

I guess, I may be a dreamer, as well as being playful... for fun!
Kio

joe · 2012-05-28 10:24:53

good to see new and different members coming in, welcome...

Jayaraj · 2012-05-28 11:00:14

suzakico wrote:
Jayaraj wrote:
What is Zen meditation please? What is described as meditation?

Brute force can't do it. Because brute force is the will. And will means the functioning of the old.

So the question to raise is- have those who say they achieved change through brute force really achieved what they claimed to have achieved?
Hi, welcome and if you stay here, pls consider this before you open your mouth...

"Keep questioning within yourself and when you cannot go any further, you may start to understand what "brute force" may mean."

Good day, good life,
Kio

Your statement has no meaning to me. If you keep questioning & you don't go any further then your inquiry is not accurate.

You seem to have made this post from a position that brute force is necessary. Then you have to put forward reason & logic to support it if this a dialogue.If you are not interested in a dialogue then forget about what I said.

I just wanted to help you to open your thread.

suzakico · 2012-05-28 11:16:07

Jayaraj wrote:
suzakico wrote:
Jayaraj wrote:
What is Zen meditation please? What is described as meditation?

Brute force can't do it. Because brute force is the will. And will means the functioning of the old.

So the question to raise is- have those who say they achieved change through brute force really achieved what they claimed to have achieved?
Hi, welcome and if you stay here, pls consider this before you open your mouth...

"Keep questioning within yourself and when you cannot go any further, you may start to understand what "brute force" may mean."

Good day, good life,
Kio
Your statement has no meaning to me. If you keep questioning & you don't go any further then your inquiry is not accurate.

You seem to have made this post from a position that brute force is necessary. Then you have to put forward reason & logic to support it if this a dialogue.If you are not interested in a dialogue then forget about what I said.

I just wanted to help you to open your thread.

Thanks for the help, but we may be living in the different planet/universe.

"Your statement has no meaning to me. If you keep questioning & you don't go any further then your inquiry is not accurate. "

As a starter, may I suggest to reflect on any past experience of yours i.e., you are stuck and cannot solve a problem? I can think of many but invention is one immediate example I can think of right now... There is a joy to solve the problem which is hard... OK the inquiry may be inaccurate as you say (that goes back to ask the right question - Einstein example I mentioned today in this thread). Whatever you call it... there is an Aha! moment... when everything fits all together...after going through impasse for even days at times...

Once you have such an experience, you may see my point. In other words, do not just react, jump into conclusion,use conventional logic, etc. OK, you may say you are doing it... Yet, I did not see it that way from your first post (and I checked one more post of yours in this forum, just in case). So, my sense is intuition... and we can leave it as that. Zen Koan is full of paradoxical examples... or put inquirer into impasse... You can ridicule them, and that is OK. We may be just living in the different space. Not to say good or bad... and that itself is a giant Koan..LOL

Take care,
Kio

Jayaraj · 2012-05-28 17:22:27

As a starter from my experience if you are stuck & then want to use brute force it means it is just a reaction out of your desire for something other than 'what is', that is the state you describe as 'impasse'. Stuck is your refusal to stay with 'what is'.If you completely pay attention to 'what is' then can 'what is', the impasse be that anymore? Do psychological issues exist by themselves? There cannot be an image without a mould that puts it together-that is the past.So in full attention can it exist?

However I don't feel you are interested in exploring this.You are just reacting.It may be your Zen conditioning.Ah, somebody is questioning Zen. It may or may not be that however. Anyhow as you yourself have suggested let's leave it that.

Last edited by Jayaraj (2012-05-28 17:24:24)

suzakico · 2012-05-28 18:09:21

Jayaraj wrote:
As a starter from my experience if you are stuck & then want to use brute force it means it is just a reaction out of your desire for something other than 'what is', that is the state you describe as 'impasse'. Stuck is your refusal to stay with 'what is'.If you completely pay attention to 'what is' then can 'what is', the impasse be that anymore? Do psychological issues exist by themselves? There cannot be an image without a mould that puts it together-that is the past.So in full attention can it exist?.

What is your answer? (did I not say this to you in my first response?)

wilbro99 · 2012-05-28 18:36:31

I did the Zen shtick for about two years here in the early 70's, whilst I was checking out my shtick for shticking power, and the Roshi swapped me a Koan for $5, something to the effect of how to realize God whilst driving a car, and it drove me mad; hence I am also known as the hatter.

Hi Kio, told you it would be fun, didn't I?

bruce sean · 2012-05-28 20:18:43

suzakico wrote:
Joe, I saw your webpage, it says, "Turning imagination into reality"
I like that....

Imagination is power...
I like the spirit of Einstein...
Also what he said something like..
Asking the right question is 95% of solving problem.

Hmmm
A taste of ..."Bliss"? LOL
Good day,
Kio

Imagination is already reality, which is illusion-imagination is illusion, period.

Eden · 2012-05-28 20:21:28

Illusion is reality for all animal species, including the human. Always will be. This is in flux of course, as some illusions are discovered and new ones enter the scene.

Last edited by Eden (2012-05-28 20:23:12)

bruce sean · 2012-05-28 20:23:51

When the illusion is dispelled, reality changes.

Eden · 2012-05-28 20:27:37

bruce sean wrote:
When the illusion is dispelled, reality changes.

So? That has been going on for billions of years and will be going on for billions more.

bruce sean · 2012-05-28 20:29:39

No, reality usually doesn't change, for millions of years is in place.

wilbro99 · 2012-05-28 20:32:49

bruce said: "Imagination is already reality, which is illusion-imagination is illusion, period."

Yes, and if that is the way you are going to orient yourself, then things better be as they seem.

bruce sean · 2012-05-28 20:34:47

There is no one to orient, so no orientation is possible. No direction.

KFA - Krishnamurti Foundation of America

Announcement

#1 2012-05-28 04:36:48

Zen and K

#2 2012-05-28 07:50:33

Re: Zen and K

#3 2012-05-28 07:50:39

Re: Zen and K

#4 2012-05-28 09:33:37

Re: Zen and K

Jayaraj wrote:

#5 2012-05-28 09:42:11

Re: Zen and K

joe wrote:

#6 2012-05-28 09:45:28

Re: Zen and K

suzakico wrote:

joe wrote:

#7 2012-05-28 10:00:35

Re: Zen and K

joe wrote:

suzakico wrote:

joe wrote:

#8 2012-05-28 10:06:49

Re: Zen and K

#9 2012-05-28 10:07:09

Re: Zen and K

#10 2012-05-28 10:13:17

Re: Zen and K

kio wrote:

#11 2012-05-28 10:16:00

Re: Zen and K

joe wrote:

#12 2012-05-28 10:22:23

Re: Zen and K

joe wrote:

kio wrote:

#13 2012-05-28 10:24:53

Re: Zen and K

#14 2012-05-28 11:00:14

Re: Zen and K

suzakico wrote:

Jayaraj wrote:

#15 2012-05-28 11:16:07

Re: Zen and K

Jayaraj wrote:

suzakico wrote:

Jayaraj wrote:

#16 2012-05-28 17:22:27

Re: Zen and K

#17 2012-05-28 18:09:21

Re: Zen and K

Jayaraj wrote:

#18 2012-05-28 18:36:31

Re: Zen and K

#19 2012-05-28 20:18:43

Re: Zen and K

suzakico wrote:

#20 2012-05-28 20:21:28

Re: Zen and K

#21 2012-05-28 20:23:51

Re: Zen and K

#22 2012-05-28 20:27:37

Re: Zen and K

bruce sean wrote:

#23 2012-05-28 20:29:39

Re: Zen and K

#24 2012-05-28 20:32:49

Re: Zen and K

#25 2012-05-28 20:34:47

Re: Zen and K

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