KFA - Krishnamurti Foundation of America

You are not logged in.

Announcement

To use the forum: 1) request the creation of a new account by clicking Register and sending us an email with your desired username 2) new users will be e-mailed a random password within three business days. They can then log in and change this password in their profile if they see fit. This feature also requires users to verify new e-mail addresses if they choose to change from the one they registered with 3) click Dialogue Forum link to enter the dialogue forum 4) click on an existing thread or post a new topic 5) enjoy the dialogue.....
Kindly be mindful of the following points regarding the forum. Dialogue is thinking together - it isn’t debate - and it's inquiring together without end point or agenda. People come into the dialogue from their own place of understanding, which is not going to be your place of understanding. We’re here to communicate together, learn together and gain insight into our own thought; to receive and share our observations, not impose our views on others. Address the comments in a polite, considerate manner. By all means, ask for clarification, but challenge the comment, not the commentator. We don’t know enough about the others to make those judgments and we’re here to learn about ourselves, not to correct another's perceived personality flaws. If a comment brings an emotional response, look at that. Do you feel the need to defend? To attack? Time for some looking inward. Self protection results in war. Besides, the war is in each of us. Stop that war, and the rest will take care of itself. (For some suggestions on the nature of dialogue, please click here)

Make friends across the globe, post your photos and videos, write a blog or start a discussion, just go to jkrishnamurti.ning.com

#276 2012-06-30 06:35:51

CB
Member
Registered: 2009-02-21
Posts: 146

Re: Chess

bruce sean wrote:

bruce sean wrote:

LMP wrote:

Yes I play chess, but only for fun, never tried to learn it at a deeper level.

Here's a puzzle for ya, LMP, see how quickly you can spot a good tactic to do something positive in this position: it could be anything, mate or winning something which, with good technique, will win the game, so stay open to any possibility.

  And sds is welcome to try this one, too.


  White pieces are located as follows: pawns: a2, g2 and h2; a Bishop on e4; 2 Rooks, one on d1 and the other on f1; the Queen on c2, and the King on h1.

  Black pieces are located as follows: pawns-b5, c5,f4,g4, and h6; 2 Bishops, one on c8 and another on d4; one Rook on b8, the Queen on f8, and the King on h8.

  Good Luck!

  Edit: Ooops! White to move.

What about this one, CB?

yeah, I think I see it here. Saw right away that it probably had something to do with displacing black's well-placed black bishop, but took a little longer to find the full combo.

1.RxB, PxB; 2. Qc7. The only way for black to save the rook is to move the c8 bishop. Moving it to e6 or f5 results in immediate capture after 3. Qe5+. The only other option, moving the bishop to a6, also results in capture after 3. Qe5+, Kg8 (Qg7 drops the rook); 4. Q e6+ So it looks like no matter what, black's going to lose one of his bishops at least.

After, 2....ba6, white's best move might be rxf4 though. Opens up some interesting mate threats and black will probably lose the queen.

Offline

 

#277 2012-07-01 18:02:26

bruce sean
Member
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 2009-08-13
Posts: 12155

Re: Chess

You've got it.

Offline

 

#278 2012-07-01 18:03:49

bruce sean
Member
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 2009-08-13
Posts: 12155

Re: Chess

bruce sean wrote:

Winning is the object of most games, but there's no need to identify with some wooden pieces! I mean, why not winning, without being afraid to lose?!
See, in chess an important part of the game are threats, which is a safety issue. Of course, in life, all too often threats are perceived when there are none. The whole defensive attitude comes into play, followed by aggressiveness. Chess threats are real, while most 'life-threats' are not.

  But apart from board vision there is a tactical vision, which is improved by a broader board vision, granted,  but in itself it's not enough. There are about 2.000 different tactical ideas in chess, and when playing there isn't enough time to figure them out at the board...

  Then there is visualization: which means the capacity to calculate ahead, to figure out threats. All these three are separate issues.

  Then there are openings: I know you don't study them, but in doing so one studies chess itself, the way it's played, understanding moves, threats, the whole of it.

  Besides, without studying the experience of others-not to be confused with experience in the psychological field-even a computer wouldn't know why playing 5...a6 in Ruy Lopez is actually good. It's not so obvious, only experience , lots of games played by others proved that.
  Or take the moves: 1.e4 c5; 2.Nf3 d6; 3.d4 cxd4; 4.Nxd4 Nf6; 5.Nc3 a6; 6.Bg5 Nd7.

  Now the last move is very logical, the Knight on d7 is ready to replace the Knight on f6, in case the white Bishop captures it, Knight which controls the key square d5, which is a key issue in Najdorf Sicilians. And in fact, many Grandmasters back in the 60's were playing this move, which now every kid knows it's inferior to 6...e6, followed by 7. f4, after which Black will try either to unpin his Bishop, with moves like Qb6, Qc7, Be7('Main Line'), or ignore the pin altogether with 7...b5. So a lot of games played have found the right order here, and dismissed 6...Nd7 as being improper- the Knight developing too early on to that square.

  Take for example, this sequence of moves: 1.e4 e5; 2.Nf3 Nc6; 3.Bb5 a6; 4.Ba4 Nf6; 5.0-0 Nxe4; 6.d4 b5; 7.Bb3 d5; 8.dxe5 Be6; 9.Nbd2 Nc5; 10.c3 Bg4; 11.Bc2 Qd7; 12.Re1 Rd8; 13.Re1 Be7; 14.Ne3.

  Now, board vision alone won't give you the answer as to what Black should play next. Even if you do spot the two main things White's last move does, even a computer, a weak one, cannot find the right move. Can you?

  Also, about openings, as I said, the whole understanding of chess in general is there-see the example I will propose to RJ, and try, if you have time and disposition, to find the correct move.

  If not, just ignore the whole thing.

Finally, what about this one? A weak program can't find the best move.

Offline

 

#279 2012-07-02 22:46:50

CB
Member
Registered: 2009-02-21
Posts: 146

Re: Chess

bruce sean wrote:

bruce sean wrote:

Winning is the object of most games, but there's no need to identify with some wooden pieces! I mean, why not winning, without being afraid to lose?!
See, in chess an important part of the game are threats, which is a safety issue. Of course, in life, all too often threats are perceived when there are none. The whole defensive attitude comes into play, followed by aggressiveness. Chess threats are real, while most 'life-threats' are not.

  But apart from board vision there is a tactical vision, which is improved by a broader board vision, granted,  but in itself it's not enough. There are about 2.000 different tactical ideas in chess, and when playing there isn't enough time to figure them out at the board...

  Then there is visualization: which means the capacity to calculate ahead, to figure out threats. All these three are separate issues.

  Then there are openings: I know you don't study them, but in doing so one studies chess itself, the way it's played, understanding moves, threats, the whole of it.

  Besides, without studying the experience of others-not to be confused with experience in the psychological field-even a computer wouldn't know why playing 5...a6 in Ruy Lopez is actually good. It's not so obvious, only experience , lots of games played by others proved that.
  Or take the moves: 1.e4 c5; 2.Nf3 d6; 3.d4 cxd4; 4.Nxd4 Nf6; 5.Nc3 a6; 6.Bg5 Nd7.

  Now the last move is very logical, the Knight on d7 is ready to replace the Knight on f6, in case the white Bishop captures it, Knight which controls the key square d5, which is a key issue in Najdorf Sicilians. And in fact, many Grandmasters back in the 60's were playing this move, which now every kid knows it's inferior to 6...e6, followed by 7. f4, after which Black will try either to unpin his Bishop, with moves like Qb6, Qc7, Be7('Main Line'), or ignore the pin altogether with 7...b5. So a lot of games played have found the right order here, and dismissed 6...Nd7 as being improper- the Knight developing too early on to that square.

  Take for example, this sequence of moves: 1.e4 e5; 2.Nf3 Nc6; 3.Bb5 a6; 4.Ba4 Nf6; 5.0-0 Nxe4; 6.d4 b5; 7.Bb3 d5; 8.dxe5 Be6; 9.Nbd2 Nc5; 10.c3 Bg4; 11.Bc2 Qd7; 12.Re1 Rd8; 13.Re1 Be7; 14.Ne3.

  Now, board vision alone won't give you the answer as to what Black should play next. Even if you do spot the two main things White's last move does, even a computer, a weak one, cannot find the right move. Can you?

  Also, about openings, as I said, the whole understanding of chess in general is there-see the example I will propose to RJ, and try, if you have time and disposition, to find the correct move.

  If not, just ignore the whole thing.

Finally, what about this one? A weak program can't find the best move.

Something isn't right in the last few sequence of moves here. 12 and 13 are both Re1, and there is no way for whites knight to move to e3. I'm guessing you mean 13. Nf1 and then 14. Ne3?

Offline

 

#280 2012-07-03 15:16:24

bruce sean
Member
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 2009-08-13
Posts: 12155

Re: Chess

Yes, yes, sorry, 13.Nf1: at the time, I've said it from memory. It was addressed to joe, and it's the Open Ruy Lopez.
  So with the last move, what do we have? White is basically offering a pawn: shoeld Black accept it? No, editing-'should'.
  Because joe had said he tried to see as much as he can on the board, and this one proves that it's not nearly enough to find the correct answer here.

Offline

 

#281 2012-07-04 00:24:53

CB
Member
Registered: 2009-02-21
Posts: 146

Re: Chess

Taking the pawn right away doesn't seem to work for black. 14...Nxe5; 15. Nxe5, BxQ; 16. NxQ, Bxc2; 17. Nxc5. So black would lose the exchange there.

But if he takes with 14...Bxf3; 15. Qxf3, Nxe5, then I'm not seeing how that would be a problem, although it would weaken his position. White would probably play 16. Qg3 with threats on both the knight and the g7 pawn.

If black defends with 16. ..Bf6 then white can play 17. Nf5, and now black can no longer defend both knight and pawn. So that doesn't work out.  If black defends with 16...Ng6 then that does seem to hold things together by a thread unless I'm missing something. But it's probably not in black's best interest to take the pawn anyways because his position becomes so much worse.

But I don't see how white has any real threats going from the initial position though.

Offline

 

#282 2012-07-04 01:18:56

RJ
Member
From: New Zealand
Registered: 2011-01-29
Posts: 2917

Re: Chess

http://mlblogsphilliesphollowers.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/43624764_4db3eaac1f_o1.jpg

Offline

 

#283 2012-07-04 08:53:17

awareness
Banned
Registered: 2011-09-03
Posts: 4038

Re: Chess

hey RJ, before you are ending how the lady above lets play Battleship together:-)

Offline

 

#284 2012-07-04 16:00:27

bruce sean
Member
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 2009-08-13
Posts: 12155

Re: Chess

CB wrote:

Taking the pawn right away doesn't seem to work for black. 14...Nxe5; 15. Nxe5, BxQ; 16. NxQ, Bxc2; 17. Nxc5. So black would lose the exchange there.

But if he takes with 14...Bxf3; 15. Qxf3, Nxe5, then I'm not seeing how that would be a problem, although it would weaken his position. White would probably play 16. Qg3 with threats on both the knight and the g7 pawn.

If black defends with 16. ..Bf6 then white can play 17. Nf5, and now black can no longer defend both knight and pawn. So that doesn't work out.  If black defends with 16...Ng6 then that does seem to hold things together by a thread unless I'm missing something. But it's probably not in black's best interest to take the pawn anyways because his position becomes so much worse.

But I don't see how white has any real threats going from the initial position though.

Obviously, not taking the pawn right away; I meant after BXN, QXB and NXP, as you said.
  After that, the best move is indeed 16.Qg3, and the best defense is indeed 16...Ng6.

  You're right, it's hard to see exactly why all this sequence is risky, just by 'watching the whole board', which was the point I made to joe. The computer program gladly takes it almost right away, since it can't find any flaws either. This is one of those things which you either know or you don't. Obviously, in the beginning, when this move was first introduced-14.Ne3-there were some victims, and I still see people of lower rating, around 2100, taking the bait, and lose very quickly after that.

  What could happen after 16...Ng6?

Offline

 

#285 2012-07-04 16:01:38

bruce sean
Member
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 2009-08-13
Posts: 12155

Re: Chess

Destroying the false is never rude. It's the other way around...

Offline

 

#286 2012-07-07 04:57:10

CB
Member
Registered: 2009-02-21
Posts: 146

Re: Chess

bruce sean wrote:

Obviously, not taking the pawn right away; I meant after BXN, QXB and NXP, as you said.
  After that, the best move is indeed 16.Qg3, and the best defense is indeed 16...Ng6.

  You're right, it's hard to see exactly why all this sequence is risky, just by 'watching the whole board', which was the point I made to joe. The computer program gladly takes it almost right away, since it can't find any flaws either. This is one of those things which you either know or you don't. Obviously, in the beginning, when this move was first introduced-14.Ne3-there were some victims, and I still see people of lower rating, around 2100, taking the bait, and lose very quickly after that.

  What could happen after 16...Ng6?

Didn't see anything off-hand, just trying to work through the situations here...

White's next logical move is 17. Nf5. If 17...OO, then white wins right away with 17. Rxe7 – if black recaptures with the knight he gets check mated at g7.

If black moves 17...Ne6, then he seems to lose to 18. Bg5. The sequences are either 18...Bxg5; 19. Nxg7+, Kf8; 20. Nxe6, Pxe6; 21. Qxg5, which evens up the game materially and puts white in much better position. Or 18...Pf6, which results in loss after 19. Nxg7, Nxg7; 20. Bxg6, Pxg6; 21 Bxf6. If 18...Rg8, then 19. Nxe7, Nxe7 20. Bxh7, evening the score and giving white better position.

There's more possibilities out there, but it seems pretty clear that taking the e5 pawn is going to be bad for black in the end.

Offline

 

#287 2012-07-09 01:05:37

bruce sean
Member
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 2009-08-13
Posts: 12155

Re: Chess

Yes, that's the right conclusion, and knowing this beforehand saves up a lot of time over the board, when most needed, like in a critical position.

  Ok, I want to propose a position, which may reveal some of the marvelous chess logic.

  It is the Sicilian Scheveningen: 1e4 c5 2Nf3 e6 3d4 exd4 4Nxd4 Nf6 5Nc3 d6-although many use a different order, with d6 and a6 first, in order to avoid the next move for White: 6g4, which is the Keres attack, and which could be very dangerous attack on the Kingside.

  But let's assume that regardless of the order, things will take the course of the Main Line, which starts with 6Be2 and might continue with 6...Be7 7O-O Nc6 8Be3 O-O 9f4 a6 10a4 Qc7 11Kh1(a strategic waiting move, which forces Black to decide where it will move its f8 Rook). Because Black cannot yet solve its c8 Bishop problem, in terms of where it will go: it might be c6, e6 or b7, but it's too early, certain conditions are not met-so Black moves its Rook to e8, 11...Re8. It had tried also to move it to d8, but this seems better.

  So now 12Bf3(Bd3 was also tried), and now the main line continues with 12...Rb8.

  But one of the sidelines is 12...Bd7. Which is why I want to look at: this movement of the Bishop to d7 gives White an idea: what is it? I'm gonna start this, and maybe you can continue.

  Moving the Bishop to d7, and having previously moved its Rook to e8, this combination of factors gives White the idea of an attack on the f6 Knight with g4, followed by g5, in which case the poor Knight won't have a good retreat, other than Kh8 and Ng8, but from there it can only go e7-I hope I'm right, since I don't have the board in front of me, nor the sequence of moves.

  But, but g4 doesn't work right away. Why? Because after 13g4 Black can solve the problem posed by White with 13...Nxd4 14Bxd4 and now 14...Bc6, after which 15g5 can be met by 15...Nd7, since the Bishop has left the d7 square.

  Seeing all this, White must continue to pose problems for Black, and what should be his next move, one which could avoid Black's refutation, and-why not?-possibly create other problems, at the same time?

Offline

 

#288 2012-07-16 03:38:12

CB
Member
Registered: 2009-02-21
Posts: 146

Re: Chess

Looking at it now, not seeing anything that white can do immediately to prevent Black's escape.  Getting the B2 pawn to B4 with the threat of b5 would push black's bishop back to d7, but it doesn't quite work out. After 13. Nxc6, Bxc6; 14. Pb4, then black can always move Pb6, making an escape route for the bishop.

13. Pe5 doesn't quite work out either. 13...pxe5; 14. Nxc6, Bxc6; 15. Bxc6, Qxd6; 16. Pxe5 - and now d7 is open again.

It would basically have to involve moving the d4 knight to b3 or e2, or 13. Nce2  but I don't see how any problems are posed with those moves.

Offline

 

#289 2012-07-18 22:49:17

bruce sean
Member
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 2009-08-13
Posts: 12155

Re: Chess

You could have come to a quicker understanding, by-passing the first part of your reasoning, and come directly to the end, which is what really opens the gates of chess logic.

  As we've seen, 13.g4 doesn't pose problems for Black, because he can simplify and then move his Bishop on c6. So one idea is to move the Knight from d4 somewhere. And 2 available squares are e2 and b3.

  Let's consider first e2. After 13.Nde2 Black can also move his c6 Knight somewhere, perhaps at b4 or a5. Then after 14.g4 Bc6 15.g5 the Bishop can go again to c6, with a solid set up.

  So 2 of Blacks problems can be solved: the f6 Knight and the c8 Bishop, which is always a problem in the Sicilian, as well as in the French, and in the Queen's Gambit Declined.

  Therefore, White needs to keep examining other options, and the next one is 13.Nb3. And after the aforementioned measures employed by Black, White can now play a5, with a further Bb6, gaining space on the Queenside, and preventing a b5 break.

  Which means that 13.Nb3 contains 3 problems which Black must solve: his f6 Knight, c8 Bishop, and the imminent a5 advance.

  How is he to solve all three of them, and how many solutions are there, and which one is, more or less, the best?

Offline

 

#290 2012-07-22 01:23:55

CB
Member
Registered: 2009-02-21
Posts: 146

Re: Chess

Right, I think you mean the bishop on d7,not c8. So how to solve all of those problems?

13....Na5 doesn't work right away, because of 14. Pe5. So first black has to move 13...Pe5, followed by 14. Pf5, Na5 - which does seem to cover all three. That's the only option I'm seeing now, actually.

Offline

 

#291 2012-07-24 17:02:40

bruce sean
Member
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 2009-08-13
Posts: 12155

Re: Chess

I meant in general, the c8 Bishop is a problem because most often Black castles Kingside and develops his f8 Bishop first, leaving the other Bishop without a home until the end of the opening.

  I don't see how 13...e5 solves the problem: After 14 g4 then what happens? The Bishop must go either to c8 or e6. If it goes to e6 then after 14...Be6 15 f5 it must eventually go to c8, and after 15...Bc8 16 g5 Nd7 and now 17a5, and Black's space on the Kingside has become cramped, and the b5 counterattack has been successfully blocked. In proper time, Bb6 will follow, possibly chasing back the Black Queen to b8 (from c7). I hope I'm right, since I don't have the board in front of me right now.
  So it seems to that 13...e5 doesn't prevent a5, and what's more, the Bishop is stuck for the moment on c8, so it solves only one of those three problems initially posed.
  On the other hand, I fail to see how 13...Na5 is NOT a solution: after 14 e5-you propose-14...fxe5 15 fxe5 Qxe5 and now 16 g4, but now 16...Bc6 and 17 g5 Nd7 and the Bishop and the Knight are free of problems, while a5 has been prevented. But 14 e5 is not White's best option, as we shall see when we look at the other main solution and compare it with this one.

  Are there anymore solutions? Is this Black's best option?

  It's funny but I've bumped into a Scheveningen book recently and they attempt to explain it move by move; but somehow they don't go into this kind of detail, like seeing these three problems here-instead, only one, the Knight's, is mentioned. Which gave me an insight into the value of oneself going into things, not of seeing something because someone pointed it out, but because you see it, and in that case, seeing includes much, much more, which cannot be included in any book.

Offline

 

Board footer

Powered by PunBB
© Copyright 2002–2005 Rickard Andersson