KFA - Krishnamurti Foundation of America
You are not logged in.
Announcement
Kindly be mindful of the following points regarding the forum. Dialogue is thinking together - it isn’t debate - and it's inquiring together without end point or agenda. People come into the dialogue from their own place of understanding, which is not going to be your place of understanding. We’re here to communicate together, learn together and gain insight into our own thought; to receive and share our observations, not impose our views on others. Address the comments in a polite, considerate manner. By all means, ask for clarification, but challenge the comment, not the commentator. We don’t know enough about the others to make those judgments and we’re here to learn about ourselves, not to correct another's perceived personality flaws. If a comment brings an emotional response, look at that. Do you feel the need to defend? To attack? Time for some looking inward. Self protection results in war. Besides, the war is in each of us. Stop that war, and the rest will take care of itself. (For some suggestions on the nature of dialogue, please click here)
Make friends across the globe, post your photos and videos, write a blog or start a discussion, just go to jkrishnamurti.ning.com
#51 2012-04-27 10:59:46
- snguyen
- Member
- Registered: 2009-04-15
- Posts: 3347
Re: Thought and Insight
joe wrote:
Well if you follow my posts you likely see that I am called many things, haha...there are some times when it sticks for a bit and many times when it does not. It is always a matter of how I am functioning that determines whether it takes root or not. Again, to me to say the whole psyche ends is a reach. I do not think it ever completely ended for K and I know it has not completely ended for me. I used to think it had but it was only me smelling flowers and ignoring the traffic smell.
I understand, Joe. And I see now where your inquiry is heading.
Offline
#52 2012-04-27 11:08:11
- snguyen
- Member
- Registered: 2009-04-15
- Posts: 3347
Re: Thought and Insight
Eden wrote:
pearl wrote:
Ha ha ha, to snguyen the forum is as a mistress, a place he goes to when away from his wife...laughing...or a place he leaves to go to his wife...laughing hard now...
(commenting in response to post # 36)We all have our hobbies of leisure. K liked to play tennis, snuggy likes to re-phrase K in his own words.
K said he would rather die than have a 9 to 5 job and a wife. Maybe snuggy can put that in his own words too?
Hahaha, Eden. No I can't. I still have to work, 9-5 yeah. I like the idea from Pearl to own one's own business, but the transfer of career is quite a task. Only if I had same passion in business as I do in truth I would be rich beyond making trips to Hawaii! Haha. But see, for a K nut or a Truth nut like snuggy here, nothing is now a conflict. It's the art of living, great thanks to K, but he would turn it back to me saying you yourself see it sir.
What you do for a living Eden?
Offline
#53 2012-04-27 11:18:25
- snguyen
- Member
- Registered: 2009-04-15
- Posts: 3347
Re: Thought and Insight
joe wrote:
snguyen wrote:
joe wrote:
A sense of identity is important for any human being to function in the world. A sense of knowing what you are doing, whatever that doing is. In that sense time is practical and so too is that sense of identity. If your job is coding computers and you do not know what you are doing (and that knowledge is a result of training etc, a result of past learning) then you will not be in that job much longer. So I hesitate to lump it all in the category of illusion, too easy and too broad a brush.No, psychologically. Is psychological identity important? How, tell me. I am serious, not joking.
I thought I just did. If you work in a factory or in an office, understnading that you are who your name tag says you are is likely important. Understanding that the email addressed to the you that has a name, to the you that is the conventional truth, is important in order to function. You might say that is not the psychological me but really, isn't any sense of identity, any sense at all, a psychological identity? To draw a comparison contrast here, just so I am clear, I am not in any way saying that holding onto a grudge is the same sense of identity as knowing how to write java or python due to the identity and training that identity has. One is needed in the moment (writing java or assembling a car) and the other (holding a grudge) carries a moment with it.
I understand, but I am asking if there is anything much more beyond all this? And to carry all this along, can one understand what true freedom is?
There is a great sense of order that comes when the false order, the false social morality and conditioning are uprooted in oneself. That new order must be set in place before the mind can inquire or explode into other things that have not a limit put on it.
Offline
#54 2012-04-27 13:26:28
- Roots
- Banned
- Registered: 2011-03-13
- Posts: 6580
Re: Thought and Insight
wilbro99 wrote:
Si asks: "Can a petty mind concerned with itself, its little pleasures and worries all day, enter into that eternal unknown? Can the mind see its own pettiness?"
BobD answers: "No and no. The mind sees only what it chooses to project. At least...this mind does."
Hi BD, I would say that your answer is the answer to the first question and half an answer to the second question. Here, let me wonk a bit on that.
I would say that Bob's answer is wholly correct.
The second no of yours fits the first no, as it must, as it is only the *petty mind* that projects in that way. I think there is a yes to that second question if it is this *petty mind* that catches sight of the pattern of *petty*.
Both of these projected minds are necessarily 'petty'.
Like, if I see that I am patterning, that opens up a reflection upon my movement through the pattern that might be of some use in understanding what *petty* means.
I think this is to misunderstand the operation of the everyday (as opposed to insighted) mind.
Let's look at it: 'Can the mind see its own pettiness?'
Firstly, the question creates a duality, which means that it begins by painting a picture of supposed reality which does not actually reflect reality; this in the understanding that in (real) reality there is no division. (Which of course is to say outside of the illusion).
There is no such thing as 'pettiness' as an objective thing separate from mind. In order to avoid the slide into the falsity of duality (division) it is necessary to see that the mind itself, at some point of time always called the present, either constitutes pettiness or it does not. Which is to say that at that point in time (always called the present) the mind itself was pettiness or it was not.
It will be seen that this only ever supposes one thing, viz. 'mind'; and mind is petty or it is not petty, angry or not angry, etc.. There is a singular, unitary, condition (that is, except within the divisive and thus destructive imagination of psychological thought).
At #23, by offering no response, Bob implicitly let you off the hook willy.
I would in addition point out that the cloying to division has, in this thread, caused you to spray 'transcendents' around like confetti: driven 'wedges' (driven by who or what one may ask?); 'absolutes'; the 'gate-keeper' who keeps the worlds apart; etc.. Divided thought constructions cannot avoid this, but until you see that your thinking is divided, there can be no escape. Such a thinker must come to see that their mind is working that way; in other words, they must come to see that their mind is 'pettiness' rather than possessing pettiness as an objective 'other'.
Offline
#55 2012-04-27 13:31:27
- pearl
- Member
- Registered: 2009-02-15
- Posts: 6417
Re: Thought and Insight
snguyen wrote:
pearl wrote:
Ha ha ha, to snguyen the forum is as a mistress, a place he goes to when away from his wife...laughing...or a place he leaves to go to his wife...laughing hard now...
(commenting in response to post # 36)Your laugh is still echoing across the rooms on the forum Pearl. I like to laugh, spontaneously or making little jokes with my wife and laugh with her. Hey, you know, if you know how to laugh... hahaha...hehehe. ;-) But there are times for very serious inquiries, looking very deep within with energy, insight and from there comes more unstoppable drunken laughing...
Yes, agree with you totally. Btw, snguyen your wife is one lucky damsel to have you by her side. Now, this is not being envious at all, but it just made me think as to how anyone could not be totally in love with you...hehehee...:-) and you know, from this love I like to joke with you and laugh with you as well....this unstoppable laughter....just awesome.
Offline
#56 2012-04-27 13:43:42
- pearl
- Member
- Registered: 2009-02-15
- Posts: 6417
Re: Thought and Insight
snguyen wrote:
Eden wrote:
pearl wrote:
Ha ha ha, to snguyen the forum is as a mistress, a place he goes to when away from his wife...laughing...or a place he leaves to go to his wife...laughing hard now...
(commenting in response to post # 36)We all have our hobbies of leisure. K liked to play tennis, snuggy likes to re-phrase K in his own words.
K said he would rather die than have a 9 to 5 job and a wife. Maybe snuggy can put that in his own words too?Hahaha, Eden. No I can't. I still have to work, 9-5 yeah. I like the idea from Pearl to own one's own business, but the transfer of career is quite a task. Only if I had same passion in business as I do in truth I would be rich beyond making trips to Hawaii! Haha. But see, for a K nut or a Truth nut like snuggy here, nothing is now a conflict. It's the art of living, great thanks to K, but he would turn it back to me saying you yourself see it sir.
What you do for a living Eden?
Snguyen I'd like to share some good buisiness tips with you one day. You're gonna laugh your eyes out....:-)
Offline
#57 2012-04-27 13:56:21
- snguyen
- Member
- Registered: 2009-04-15
- Posts: 3347
Re: Thought and Insight
wilbro99 wrote:
The first way is how it is remembered, and the second way is how it is sensed.
Si, your first and second paragraphs are descriptions cast in the first and second ways respectively.
Or so it seems to me.
Again, thanks for the conversation.
Do you see that the two ways are very drastically different?
You see, the intellect which is formulated, controlled, shaped by thinking and thought, is something old and must be remembered to be operable. The thinking faculty definitely has its good place, and one must have a good capacity to think, to follow logic and reasoning, instead of drinking beer all day. But in the next paragraph I will show its mistake.
The intellect is actually the premature children of the unfinished senses. Long before the intellect or thought or knowledge come aboard the senses must be there already. And from the senses we sense the universe into words. Technologically, the intellect needs theories and later the workable facts fit in. Beautiful! Psychologically however, the intellect who is the child of the senses now puts its own parents into moulds. From the thousands limited moulds, life goes into chaos of conflicts. The very beginning, the very source of creation must be that of great order, and the work of the mind now is to return to that order.
But what are the finished senses? Is it like the Schubert’s Unfinished symphony? Ha ha sir Willy?
Offline
#58 2012-04-27 13:59:41
- snguyen
- Member
- Registered: 2009-04-15
- Posts: 3347
Re: Thought and Insight
pearl wrote:
Snguyen I'd like to share some good buisiness tips with you one day. You're gonna laugh your eyes out....:-)
Great. Thanks Pearl.
Offline
#59 2012-04-27 14:01:53
- snguyen
- Member
- Registered: 2009-04-15
- Posts: 3347
Re: Thought and Insight
pearl wrote:
Yes, agree with you totally. Btw, snguyen your wife is one lucky damsel to have you by her side. Now, this is not being envious at all, but it just made me think as to how anyone could not be totally in love with you...hehehee...:-) and you know, from this love I like to joke with you and laugh with you as well....this unstoppable laughter....just awesome.
No problem at all. My wife once glanced into the forum and were surprised at how I chatted with weird personal names like tree, beans and awareness... Ha ha ha..
Offline
#60 2012-04-27 14:33:39
- pearl
- Member
- Registered: 2009-02-15
- Posts: 6417
Re: Thought and Insight
snguyen wrote:
pearl wrote:
Yes, agree with you totally. Btw, snguyen your wife is one lucky damsel to have you by her side. Now, this is not being envious at all, but it just made me think as to how anyone could not be totally in love with you...hehehee...:-) and you know, from this love I like to joke with you and laugh with you as well....this unstoppable laughter....just awesome.
No problem at all. My wife once glanced into the forum and were surprised at how I chatted with weird personal names like tree, beans and awareness... Ha ha ha..
Smiling...
(and it's very generous of her to share her love with us all)
Offline
#61 2012-04-27 16:15:46
- Eden
- Member
- From: Hawaii
- Registered: 2009-05-08
- Posts: 5508
Re: Thought and Insight
snguyen wrote:
Eden wrote:
pearl wrote:
Ha ha ha, to snguyen the forum is as a mistress, a place he goes to when away from his wife...laughing...or a place he leaves to go to his wife...laughing hard now...
(commenting in response to post # 36)We all have our hobbies of leisure. K liked to play tennis, snuggy likes to re-phrase K in his own words.
K said he would rather die than have a 9 to 5 job and a wife. Maybe snuggy can put that in his own words too?Hahaha, Eden. No I can't. I still have to work, 9-5 yeah.
But why did K say he would rather die? K basically equated having a 9 to 5 job with murder. Let me know when you have figured out why he felt that way.
Offline
#62 2012-04-27 16:16:59
- Eden
- Member
- From: Hawaii
- Registered: 2009-05-08
- Posts: 5508
Re: Thought and Insight
(maybe pearl can help you figure it out)
Offline
#63 2012-04-27 16:59:19
Re: Thought and Insight
Si, you can hire the wonk machine to figure it out for you; there being nothing that machine can not figure out.
The wonk machine runs on UF fumes, lovingly collected from a one of a kind unicorn herd that grazes solely on grasses that grow in the Elysian Field.
Get your 6-pack today and figure it out for yourself!
Last edited by wilbro99 (2012-04-27 17:39:51)
Offline
#64 2012-04-27 18:38:13
Re: Thought and Insight
snguyen wrote:
joe wrote:
snguyen wrote:
No, psychologically. Is psychological identity important? How, tell me. I am serious, not joking.I thought I just did. If you work in a factory or in an office, understnading that you are who your name tag says you are is likely important. Understanding that the email addressed to the you that has a name, to the you that is the conventional truth, is important in order to function. You might say that is not the psychological me but really, isn't any sense of identity, any sense at all, a psychological identity? To draw a comparison contrast here, just so I am clear, I am not in any way saying that holding onto a grudge is the same sense of identity as knowing how to write java or python due to the identity and training that identity has. One is needed in the moment (writing java or assembling a car) and the other (holding a grudge) carries a moment with it.
I understand, but I am asking if there is anything much more beyond all this? And to carry all this along, can one understand what true freedom is?
There is a great sense of order that comes when the false order, the false social morality and conditioning are uprooted in oneself. That new order must be set in place before the mind can inquire or explode into other things that have not a limit put on it.
Sigh...why introduce time again? Forget who you think I am or anything about that. You are dangling carrots I ate a long time ago, and in doing so not exploring. You say you see now where the inquiry is headed, but do you? For it is just as much in the business world as it is in sitting meditation. The same passion burns through all of it, be it listening to the birds or figuring out your next step in business. How is the person functioning, the sole determiner.
Online
#66 2012-04-27 18:53:43
- kirsten
- Member
- From: the netherlands
- Registered: 2008-05-10
- Posts: 2892
Re: Thought and Insight
that's nine puppies
stepping in the business
how cute !
Offline
#68 2012-04-27 19:26:02
- kirsten
- Member
- From: the netherlands
- Registered: 2008-05-10
- Posts: 2892
Re: Thought and Insight
no i won't
Offline
#69 2012-04-27 19:30:09
- kirsten
- Member
- From: the netherlands
- Registered: 2008-05-10
- Posts: 2892
Re: Thought and Insight
Offline
#70 2012-04-27 20:12:09
- snguyen
- Member
- Registered: 2009-04-15
- Posts: 3347
Re: Thought and Insight
joe wrote:
Sigh...why introduce time again? Forget who you think I am or anything about that. You are dangling carrots I ate a long time ago, and in doing so not exploring. You say you see now where the inquiry is headed, but do you? For it is just as much in the business world as it is in sitting meditation. The same passion burns through all of it, be it listening to the birds or figuring out your next step in business. How is the person functioning, the sole determiner.
By saying I saw where you were heading I meant you and I are actually heading in two very different ways. So when I ask you very specifically your true views, then I know where to avoid all unnecessary points. It was not very clear to me on your understanding before with the notion of tech and psych thoughts. But if you say straight out that identity is important and cannot be wiped out, then obviously that is nothing new to me. To go further, beyond all these notions and the daily mechanical functioning is inquiry to me. But I don't think we can go very far together, which is quite ok.
Offline
#72 2012-04-27 20:31:32
Re: Thought and Insight
Roots, on your #54, when and if the spirit moves me to engage in flogging that dead dobbin, I shall respond.
May you find that which you seek.
Offline
#73 2012-04-27 20:32:50
Re: Thought and Insight
snguyen wrote:
But if you say straight out that identity is important and cannot be wiped out, then obviously that is nothing new to me. To go further, beyond all these notions and the daily mechanical functioning is inquiry to me. But I don't think we can go very far together, which is quite ok.
see, you are taking what I am saying with a different emphasis than I intend, so I too am watching how the words interact with you to see if we can keep going...I know you do not see my point yet, that is clear, so let me try it again. You keep asking if there is more so I will say something to that. Si, the extraordinary is in the ordinary. I do not write bubbling joyous posts so do not expect them to be forthcoming. Remaining with what another is saying, as I think it is incumbent upon us here to attempt, is difficult for any of us. It is no less wondrous to see what is happening in the mind than it is to witness the shooting star from a hot tub atop a mountain, really. That is how I live. Opening the door for the cat, washing the dishes, typing a post or bathing in the stillness of an empty house it is all the same. I know you say psychological thought ends but saying this is typically just another attempt of the mind to identify. This identifying is basically a retreat from life into the isolation of the mind, and the mind is very very clever...I wish you well but trust yourself less. I can see psychological thought in your writing at times, it is not that hard to see, as I am sure you can in mine. Denying this and believing it ends is dangerous and difficult to find yourself out of. When psychological thought as you are defining it is not happening, and maybe this goes on for days and weeks--that is fine--but shit hits fans. Stay where you are and there is nothing like this (emphasizing the ending f psych thought and the resultant state) to talk about, only the words on the page are the input, and the mind takes it from there. So, the words you use around this topic show me you do not know what I am saying yet. Is kind of fascinating, really.
Try to understand that I am not placing emphasis on the importance of the identity, and maybe you will see what I really mean this time.
Online
#74 2012-04-27 22:29:48
- snguyen
- Member
- Registered: 2009-04-15
- Posts: 3347
Re: Thought and Insight
Thanks for the long reply Joe. I think we have gone thru all of them you said in the post so far. I am ok to go on, but it is not really going anywhere. You have your stance which is true to yourself. And I have my own way, though it is said that there is no my or your way, of course when the psychological identity completely dies. In fact, I don't know what to engage you in dialogue without running into blockages again. Just retire for a while then.
Offline