KFA - Krishnamurti Foundation of America

snguyen · 2012-04-04 19:22:28

joe wrote:
i think understanding oneself is not about the presence or absence of conflict...lightning is a result of conflict. It is nice to be light and all and keep it fun, I understand, but I am talking about responsibility. Would you address that part of the post?

For me, all of what I am saying here is not a dream at all. It is not enlightenment either. But when I say I am living and seeing a very different dimension that can come to anybody if he or she enquires the way K enquired, as I have also been enquiring as such, I am talking from a reality I am living in from moment to moment.

What is responsibility in a K forum? It is to discuss and find out the truths in his teachings in one’s life, together in relationship. If we do inquire as he pointed out, it goes from observation of facts all the way to freedom. Some must do it, some has done it, and I am doing it, with anyone interested in dialogue.

If I find nothing, is it because K lied, or is it me who does not inquire as he pointed out? But if I do find beauty in ending of sorrow and suffering, in emptying the self, and together with beauty are energy, silence, freedom, is it a lie to state the truths?

Responsibility falls heavily on those who do not yet take life seriously and are talking aimlessly in the forum, and responsibility is action on those who live the truth.

Are you concerned that I am misleading people? Is this your own feeling, or complaints from the many? I only talk to a few in here. If you can discuss this with me, responsibility, things will be clearer.

beans · 2012-04-04 19:25:51

snguyen wrote:
beans wrote:
On the other hand, there are people who have memorized the right answers according to K (or the Bible, etc) and are able to recite them on demand. This is collecting knowledge. It gets in the way.

One of the differences in conditioning between you and me is that you seem to be always looking for beauty and the experience of bliss, whereas I’m not.
People identify with many things they find meaning therein but there is always a gap between the self and its identification. Where there is a gap there must be conflict: protection, possession, emotion, belief, doubt and fear of losing. We see the whole travail of that. One time I read about the Buddha and later sat down and thought about how and what he had gone through to enlightenment, I felt a huge depressing conflict and just dropped it. But it is not just people out there. It is you and me and if you look carefully, without limiting your look at any thing that is not “truth”, then you will see that nothing can stand. There, freedom is from the known, not as something you hear and see logically but because you extensively go into it without stopping at any point. Stopping at any point becomes a knowledge from which you act.
This leads me to your next saying that I am always looking for beauty…

When I am suffering and see the futile of escapes or when I am suffering and all words mean nothing, I look at my suffering and in that act there is freedom. Suffering comes in all kinds: desire, money, security, fear, sex, addiction… And with the ending of suffering, beauty is. When I am suffering, the intelligent act of looking deep into myself is intelligence, and not seeking. But the problem is, many don’t know what sorrow is. Maybe like you said, people identify with many things and explain, escape away from the facts of life. They are seeking and have found their refuges.

So there is a cycle of sorrow and beauty, suffering and freedom ... same as 99% of the human race.

joe · 2012-04-04 19:34:47

It is my feeling, and my experience, that people are easily led. Seeing this clearly shows where the responsibility lies. I am only asking you these questions because I see it the way I see it. I may be entirely wrong, but feel it would be irresponsible to just ride the merry go round without saying it.

RJ · 2012-04-04 19:36:42

beans · 2012-04-04 20:22:00

[JOLLY posts stock art poster]
beans: Hi LOLLY! Pray tell, what is it you're imagining yourself to be doing now? Bet it's fantastic! ;-)
[JOLLY posts stock art of woman sleeping]

So, JOLLY…you were sleeping and suddenly realized during the safety of slumber that you’ve always harbored a wish, deep down, to become a woman…?

snguyen · 2012-04-04 22:05:52

joe wrote:
It is my feeling, and my experience, that people are easily led. Seeing this clearly shows where the responsibility lies. I am only asking you these questions because I see it the way I see it. I may be entirely wrong, but feel it would be irresponsible to just ride the merry go round without saying it.

Thanks for the feed back.

snguyen · 2012-04-04 22:07:14

beans wrote:
snguyen wrote:
beans wrote:
On the other hand, there are people who have memorized the right answers according to K (or the Bible, etc) and are able to recite them on demand. This is collecting knowledge. It gets in the way.

One of the differences in conditioning between you and me is that you seem to be always looking for beauty and the experience of bliss, whereas I’m not.
People identify with many things they find meaning therein but there is always a gap between the self and its identification. Where there is a gap there must be conflict: protection, possession, emotion, belief, doubt and fear of losing. We see the whole travail of that. One time I read about the Buddha and later sat down and thought about how and what he had gone through to enlightenment, I felt a huge depressing conflict and just dropped it. But it is not just people out there. It is you and me and if you look carefully, without limiting your look at any thing that is not “truth”, then you will see that nothing can stand. There, freedom is from the known, not as something you hear and see logically but because you extensively go into it without stopping at any point. Stopping at any point becomes a knowledge from which you act.
This leads me to your next saying that I am always looking for beauty…

When I am suffering and see the futile of escapes or when I am suffering and all words mean nothing, I look at my suffering and in that act there is freedom. Suffering comes in all kinds: desire, money, security, fear, sex, addiction… And with the ending of suffering, beauty is. When I am suffering, the intelligent act of looking deep into myself is intelligence, and not seeking. But the problem is, many don’t know what sorrow is. Maybe like you said, people identify with many things and explain, escape away from the facts of life. They are seeking and have found their refuges.
So there is a cycle of sorrow and beauty, suffering and freedom ... same as 99% of the human race.

I am a human.

Eden · 2012-04-04 22:15:59

snguyen wrote:
I am a human.

A fragment? No wonder you have so many problems.

snguyen · 2012-04-05 02:09:08

beans "So there is a cycle of sorrow and beauty, suffering and freedom ... same as 99% of the human race."

Si "I am a human."

Eden "A fragment? No wonder you have so many problems."

All right, OK, here,

I am a human, a self, a fragment, and I have cycled through the wheel of time, and in time what is found will be lost again. Time is suffering simply because it is an illusion and when I demand to live in illusion the only thing I get is suffering. Time demands labouring through it and that is suffering. And is there a final understanding, truth in tomorrow some time in the future? Totally false, right? And without the time field, no disorder can propagate, like fear or sorrow or loneliness. See this illusion of time, and truth is timeless. Truth is now. Instant liberation now.

Silence. Why? Pleasure leaves marks and these marks surface in memory to demand repetition. That is noise. Understand pleasure and there is no pain. No pleasure or pain, there are no marks in memory, and mind is silence. Seeing is also silence for seeing removes immediately the illusion and only illusion tries to figure things out. When the illusion is dropped, there can't be any activity on an empty platform.

RJ · 2012-04-05 02:49:34

“Donner quelque chose de mano y mano”

Eden · 2012-04-05 04:55:47

snguyen wrote:
beans "So there is a cycle of sorrow and beauty, suffering and freedom ... same as 99% of the human race."

Si "I am a human."

Eden "A fragment? No wonder you have so many problems."

All right, OK, here,

I am a human, a self, a fragment, and I have cycled through the wheel of time, and in time what is found will be lost again. Time is suffering simply because it is an illusion and when I demand to live in illusion the only thing I get is suffering. Time demands labouring through it and that is suffering. And is there a final understanding, truth in tomorrow some time in the future? Totally false, right? And without the time field, no disorder can propagate, like fear or sorrow or loneliness. See this illusion of time, and truth is timeless. Truth is now. Instant liberation now.

Silence. Why? Pleasure leaves marks and these marks surface in memory to demand repetition. That is noise. Understand pleasure and there is no pain. No pleasure or pain, there are no marks in memory, and mind is silence. Seeing is also silence for seeing removes immediately the illusion and only illusion tries to figure things out. When the illusion is dropped, there can't be any activity on an empty platform.

It's called 'pattern recognition'. You make it sound so......religious and significant. The self is so verbose isn't it?

beans · 2012-04-05 07:48:13

What's that Lassie? You say RJ's fallen into the well and needs a hand? Don't worry, Lassie, he actually likes being down there and doesn't want to come out. He could climb out by himself - but he likes to play Troll King of the Underworld too much.

beans · 2012-04-05 07:52:22

beans "So there is a cycle of sorrow and beauty, suffering and freedom ... same as 99% of the human race."

Si "I am a human."

Si, have you ever wondered what would happen if you didn't regain beauty at the end of one of the periods of suffering?

snguyen · 2012-04-05 11:10:20

beans wrote:
beans "So there is a cycle of sorrow and beauty, suffering and freedom ... same as 99% of the human race."

Si "I am a human."

Si, have you ever wondered what would happen if you didn't regain beauty at the end of one of the periods of suffering?

I said many times it would be better if I had not been born. Human is organic, and an organism like a human is an extraordinary miracle, but also fragile, perishable, time and health limited. And I have to deal with all that: the vastness, the immensity, the timeless of life. There is not any corner good enough for me to deal with life and any corner is suffering.

Suffering is due to lack of understanding, lack of insight. When suffering comes to a corner without any possibility to escape and it sees no escape possible, which then it is all by itself, insight or transformation happens. Every time. We are suffering. We are conditioned and that indicates no freedom. We are suffering but we don't know it, we don't know ourselves. We can get by, put up, explain, escape, and wait for a safe death. When we question everything, turn up every single stone, we will realize the self gets caught in all kinds of illusions and that is suffering. If we don't feel, see, understand the pain, the prison, the darkness, we will carry on. But the moment we discover the pain, come into touch with it as a tremendous fact that cannot be moved by any effort, the fact transforms.

snguyen · 2012-04-05 11:19:42

Eden wrote:
snguyen wrote:
beans "So there is a cycle of sorrow and beauty, suffering and freedom ... same as 99% of the human race."

Si "I am a human."

Eden "A fragment? No wonder you have so many problems."

All right, OK, here,

I am a human, a self, a fragment, and I have cycled through the wheel of time, and in time what is found will be lost again. Time is suffering simply because it is an illusion and when I demand to live in illusion the only thing I get is suffering. Time demands labouring through it and that is suffering. And is there a final understanding, truth in tomorrow some time in the future? Totally false, right? And without the time field, no disorder can propagate, like fear or sorrow or loneliness. See this illusion of time, and truth is timeless. Truth is now. Instant liberation now.

Silence. Why? Pleasure leaves marks and these marks surface in memory to demand repetition. That is noise. Understand pleasure and there is no pain. No pleasure or pain, there are no marks in memory, and mind is silence. Seeing is also silence for seeing removes immediately the illusion and only illusion tries to figure things out. When the illusion is dropped, there can't be any activity on an empty platform.
It's called 'pattern recognition'. You make it sound so......religious and significant. The self is so verbose isn't it?

But I am not just patterns. I am much more complex, illusive, continuous cause effect, recognition and recognizer. The recognizer is the recognition.

The thoughtlessness is easy to fall into any good trap. And the thoughtfulness will not pass any chance to exploit the trap.

It is beyond the field of thought.

snguyen · 2012-04-05 14:29:06

RJ wrote:
http://www.estatevaults.com/bol/_visible_cough.jpg

“Donner quelque chose de mano y mano”

RJ and friends,

I know very well it is very boring to hear empty, repetitive words from others. There are many better forms of entertainment out there. Go for them if you don’t have the interest in understanding yourself and then have to talk in words to others. Forum is a very little corner of life and it is never my true concern here. One time Bruce asked me what to do and I wanted to see him for I can drive down to L.A easily, or I came to a K retreat. But do not depend on any medium whether it be man to man, your own little circle of relationship, internet forum, work place, party friends, or your own mind. Once I understand, the force of understanding acts without my hindrances. Real questions will come to mind in full maturity when I am in full happiness and completely problem free such as, how I am going to tell people about the liberation.

To help, to talk, you must have the thing. When you have the thing, you are not afraid of using the word to try to explain the thing, though in truth you see too well that the word is not the thing. So I am not discouraged by the inadequacy of word because it is the thing that talks, discusses, communicates, and is not caught in discouragement. You must experience in life when you have such a big joy that you must share with loved ones in any way possible, but if the joy never ends, its own force will keep pushing through everywhere, everyway possible and impossible.

It is not you, the forum, that I am attached to or addicted on. That would be too poor and obviously false, nor has love any object or resting place. It is the movement of freedom that will act freely and without regret. It has no tomorrow, thus no prediction possible. I have no concern about whatever obstacle thrown my way. So, feel free…

RJ · 2012-04-05 19:25:51

yeah man, that's what I'm saying
you're talking to the wrong people...

unless the kind of listening you want is from people who think there is something wrong with you and are trying to help show you the error of your ways...

RJ · 2012-04-05 19:30:51

beans wrote:
What's too much.

keep trying B,
the law of probability says you must hit something eventually...

beans · 2012-04-06 05:59:00

Ah, LOLLY. I'd like to direct your attention to posts #84 and #149, the first two connections between LOLLY and beans in this thread.

In response to your post above, the 'observer is the observed' fits.

RJ · 2012-04-06 06:28:30

I would like to decline your offer of directing my attention on the grounds of already having a life.

thank you, come again.

beans · 2012-04-06 06:50:16

No problem, LOLLY. (Patterns repeat.)

wilbro99 · 2012-04-06 14:23:05

What's the difference between having a life and getting a life? Having a life means that you have found out what it means, to get a life.

One of those two re-presents one who has found, a finder, and the other of those two re-presents one who has not found, a poor low life that does not know what it means to have found a life.

Therefore, if another has found a life that it not the life I have found, and my life is the life, and that other seems satisfied with their life, then that infidel must be put to trial.

Well, that is one difference between having a life and getting a life.

snguyen · 2012-04-06 16:02:07

RJ wrote:
yeah man, that's what I'm saying
you're talking to the wrong people...

unless the kind of listening you want is from people who think there is something wrong with you and are trying to help show you the error of your ways...

There is life, the whole of it, and it moves, lives, acts, and is free from the old past. There is also the shadow of life who is caught in following the real, hence a shadow, which is like thought cast on the memory of yesterdays. In the yesterdays, the old, the imprisoned, there is always the pain of choice which is prejudice, the choice of a life or not a life, believe or non believe, mystery or worn routine, good or bad people, a state of ever conflict. Poor misery. And the whole has known well the shadow of suffering.

Listen. There is that wholeness of life which is free from little divisions and their ensuing solutions, free from what to do and what not to do, free from the near sighted vision of the self miserable in its little back yard, and free from knowing. Its look is from the universe whole view point, taking time and space as its toys, death as its pillow every night, and its beauty must bring love into being.

No word.

RJ · 2012-04-06 16:14:00

sure thing mate

a lot of people in the world will agree with you if you point to God (or whatever) and talk about love, freedom, wholeness, beauty and so on.

but so what? I mean, what's the point?
Big word that one 'liberation'. Especially with respect to being the liberator.

you say
"Real questions will come to mind in full maturity when I am in full happiness and completely problem free such as, how I am going to tell people about the liberation.

To help, to talk, you must have the thing. When you have the thing, you are not afraid of using the word to try to explain the thing, though in truth you see too well that the word is not the thing"

okay again,
but have a look at who you are talking to (by have a look I mean have a listen to how they respond)
maybe you are still seeing yourself and what it is you want better than the mirror of reality?

wilbro99 · 2012-04-06 17:12:50

RJ, this is what is known as a bank shot!

KFA - Krishnamurti Foundation of America

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#151 2012-04-04 19:22:28

Re: body and state identification

joe wrote:

#152 2012-04-04 19:25:51

Re: body and state identification

snguyen wrote:

beans wrote:

#153 2012-04-04 19:34:47

Re: body and state identification

#154 2012-04-04 19:36:42

Re: body and state identification

#155 2012-04-04 20:22:00

Re: body and state identification

#156 2012-04-04 22:05:52

Re: body and state identification

joe wrote:

#157 2012-04-04 22:07:14

Re: body and state identification

beans wrote:

snguyen wrote:

beans wrote:

#158 2012-04-04 22:15:59

Re: body and state identification

snguyen wrote:

#159 2012-04-05 02:09:08

Re: body and state identification

#160 2012-04-05 02:49:34

Re: body and state identification

#161 2012-04-05 04:55:47

Re: body and state identification

snguyen wrote:

#162 2012-04-05 07:48:13

Re: body and state identification

#163 2012-04-05 07:52:22

Re: body and state identification

#164 2012-04-05 11:10:20

Re: body and state identification

beans wrote:

#165 2012-04-05 11:19:42

Re: body and state identification

Eden wrote:

snguyen wrote:

#166 2012-04-05 14:29:06

Re: body and state identification

RJ wrote:

#167 2012-04-05 19:25:51

Re: body and state identification

#168 2012-04-05 19:30:51

Re: body and state identification

beans wrote:

#169 2012-04-06 05:59:00

Re: body and state identification

#170 2012-04-06 06:28:30

Re: body and state identification

#171 2012-04-06 06:50:16

Re: body and state identification

#172 2012-04-06 14:23:05

Re: body and state identification

#173 2012-04-06 16:02:07

Re: body and state identification

RJ wrote:

#174 2012-04-06 16:14:00

Re: body and state identification

#175 2012-04-06 17:12:50

Re: body and state identification

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