KFA - Krishnamurti Foundation of America

snguyen wrote:

Jayaraj wrote:

snguyen wrote:

Yes, there is much further detail to the mind. When we say mind is thought, it means the mind right now is covered by thought. And thought is extremely strong, extremely conditioning the way the mind acts such that the whole operation is actually thought. Only in using the new tool of watching with a significant delay of thought then there is something new to mind.

Yes. The new tool of watching only can bring in something new.

What is this watching? This watching is the learning of something new and therefore the learning has no content, absolutely. If the learning draws a conclusion, a concept on which it bases its life, it becomes false completely. So, the learning/watching has transformed into the light of insight. Insight is a constant state that has no time, no river no boat to cross to the other shore.

Can you deny, destroy, die, and throw away absolutely everything mankind has brought about in you? Because that state absolutely has nothing to do with anything that has been known.

Sir,I will not answer the last statement of yours but will hold it in me.

bruce sean wrote:

Jayaraj wrote:

bruce sean wrote:

Perhaps the gap is only in the superficial mind, but on the whole there is no gap. Because of this, I'm saying that this gap is not silence.

  About recognition, I'm saying that this process is one of thinking, nothing else.

Sir, when you see this message what takes place? Do you get the meaning of the message at once or do you see the screen first? You cannot get the message instantly without reading. You only see the screen first. Then only thought operates. So, it's a fact there is sensing through the organs first. Once there is thought then it ends & then again there is sensory perception & another thought takes place. This is a fact sir. Nobody can deny it. If there is no gap then it's totally a material process, like a stone.

Silence may be a mind in which thought has ended.Psychological thought. This ending is possible because there is a gap. The gap is silence but it is not felt as silence with so many thoughts taking place & the gap being so brief.

Normally, when you read the words on this screen what happens? Sensation, then thought. Then, IT SEEMS to be a gap before the next sensation and next thought, but IN THE BACKGROUND thought continues to work. It is the same when you sleep: there seems to be an 8-hour gap, or whatever hours you sleep, but the mind is dreaming, and so memory keeps working.

  There is no such thing as a gap: either there is emptiness, or fullness; partial emptiness is not emptiness.

I am not talking about partial emptiness sir. There is no such thing of course. Because then then there is something. I am just talking about the nature of how thought takes place.

When you say sensation, then thought; this is saying there is at the beginning that mind without thought. That is at the stage of sensation. That's all sir.As for sleep there is sleep without any dreams.Forget the background & look how thought takes place.What is actively taking place now.Background may be a drunk state.

Look at it this way sir. Is thought a finished product or a process? Watch it yourself please. It is a process. It gets molded now. Otherwise it cannot be ended! Like a machine producing cups or something. After one cup then the material stops and another begins.Otherwise it will be connected. Then it is all matter. Life consists of energy too sir, not just matter.

Last edited by Jayaraj (2012-02-11 07:55:00)

bruce sean wrote:

Of course it is a process. And it's going on all the time. Even when sensation happens, in the brain, thought is active-the brain is never free from thought-always working, calculating. And when a sensation is sent to the this brain which is always moving, moving, moving, that sensation is interpreted according to this movement.
We're not talking of the movement of recognition, which is partially necessary. We are talking of the movement of the self. It is always there.

  Now, what stops that movement? Does it stop by itself, or is it something else ... which erases these multiple layers of thinking?

Wait a minute sir, if you say it is always there-that is the movement of the self-then no resolution is possible.Is this movement of the brain then separate from the process of sensation? Or does it begin with sensation & awaken the movement? Which means then the self is actually taking place moment to moment though it appears to be there always.You see sir, is there anything that is always there?

bruce sean wrote:

It's taking place moment to moment, but the pattern is always there. It is like a program, always running in the background, although in forefront there are breaks, necessary for new sensations.
  But the program, just like a computer's, is always running.

  So the question is what will make the program stop? Not just in the fore, but in the deeper layers of consciousness.

It is what is taking place in the forefront that pushes things into the background. It is a pebble hitting the water & giving off a ripple. Spreading of the ripple in wider & wider circles may be the background but what causes it is that instance of the pebble hitting water.

So then it comes down to what makes the mind make images, isn't it sir? In this present moment. Once it is made then there are images in the background. So what makes the mind create an image now? If images are not made now, then the program must end, is that not correct sir?

Last edited by Jayaraj (2012-02-16 00:25:20)

bruce sean wrote:

Does it end or is it still there? There may be images one is not aware of. We think normally about 60.000 thoughts per day, let alone the dreams. That's one per second-lots of images. One moment of inattention and the image is being stored away and pushed into the background.
   What is attention, and is attention a conscious process?

One moment of inattention.....yes that's what happens. So when we say images are made it is thought, isn't it? Thought is the maker of images. So coming into being of a thought is what makes an image.That's the issue. Then what's the process that makes a thought sir? Unless that is understood images cannot end.

Is attention a conscious process?- To me this is a very important question. Because without complete attention there is no understanding. So attention is not a conscious process.Because conscious process implies a division & therefore not attention.

Last edited by Jayaraj (2012-02-19 02:10:15)

bruce sean wrote:

So how does attention manifest? Or is there something beyond attention, which still, no matter how you look at it, implies a conscious component. But if it's truly not conscious, can it still be called attention?

  As for what makes a thought process. what do you mean? There are images upon images, that's all, and they keep interfering with perception, which is our conditioning. How can it ever stop? Not by understanding all images, where each comes from, that is endless, so that's out.

1)How does attention manifest? Well it is there. It is just seeing. It is the action of life.Seeing hearing & so on.So it is acting. That is life. Action of life. Attention is looking at the closest. Closest is 'what is'. 'What is' is always there in front of you. Attention is just looking at that, the closest. Otherwise it is thinking which is just the brain caught in habit, not the action of life which is attention.

2)No, not by understanding all the images! That would be just analysis anyway. But what makes an image? A single image? Not all the images.

It is thought that puts together images. So operation of it, in the act, is formulation of a thought. In the instance we formulate a thought,each moment. I mean thought is not like a car coming on a road at a distance. A coming into being of a thought is not that. But it's assembling of a car at this moment. So thought gets molded now. Not a finished product like a car coming along a road. So the question is what puts together a thought in the mind in this instance? That is the live wire that feeds the whole thing. What make it possible for it to formulate? Is it a certain fundamental error in understanding? A wrong understanding the mind is entrenched in? What is getting at that understanding,insight?

Maker of image is the past which is the me.

We say my whole life is a failure. Now that is an image. It is put together by many incidents. So this image is put together by many thoughts.And it undergoes further change facing the present.

Let me put it simply sir? Is there ending of thought? In which manner is it brought about?

Awareness. Awareness is not thought.

Even if there is no recognition, if there is form that can be perceived then there is cognition. And then there is just being/witnessing.

You are experiencing the world, you are aware of the world, through a human body. You are not a flower, you are not a bacteria or an insect who sees the UV spectrum. So your awareness is particular to the human body, and other living creatures have a different flavor of awareness. It is limited and molded by the human apparatus. You are aware of a subset of all things, through the senses.

bruce sean wrote:

night wrote:

Even if there is no recognition, if there is form that can be perceived then there is cognition. And then there is just being/witnessing.

If there is a form, then there IS a pattern, and so recognition. Is there a formless perception?

  And 'being' is exactly what prevents such a perception, the 'feeling' of a being which perceives, that is.

Try to speak standard English. You are not making any sense as such.

A pattern implies repetition of some kind (look up the definitions). Do you see the "re" in recognition. So it is just about repetition. If you see something that you have never seen before, then it is cognition, not recognition. Next time, yes.

If there is something to perceive, it will have form. Whether that form is a ray of light, a dream, cramp in the stomach, or the workings of your mind. Then mind itself is form.

Now behind all that there is something that perceives the universe/body/mind/senses/dreams/.... It can only perceive forms (through the body-mind), or rest as silence.

bruce sean wrote:

If there is recognition in awareness, is it still not thought?

night wrote:

A pattern implies repetition of some kind (look up the definitions). Do you see the "re" in recognition. So it is just about repetition. If you see something that you have never seen before, then it is cognition, not recognition. Next time, yes.

Recognition is memory identifying  as having known before after cognition.Even if you have seen something before the next time also it is cognition first which is awareness of the object & then recognition which is operation of thought.

So what puts an end to thought sir?

There is no other factor at this stage,yes. Now cannot this other factor be born? What will bring in this new factor into being that will dissolve thought?

Which means that psychological thought is NOT necessary, at any stage, just like technological story IS necessary, at any stage.