KFA - Krishnamurti Foundation of America

Eden wrote:

pearl wrote:

Alright, but if I ever lived with someone whom I truly, deeply loved and vice versa that would not occur.  We'd have no time to insult each other, threaten each other, or fight each other.  On the contrary he'd be the happiest man alive and the luckiest, and most fortunate to have me as his partner and I'd feel exactly the same.  Every moment of it would be filled with wonder and love and ecstacy, totally.  Nothing less than that.  He will never be able to hurt me nor me him which means I would only share my life intimately with someone who is fully mature enough to meet me with the same intensity, and with whom it is totally possible to communicate in every situation.  Why would I put someone I love deeply, down, and why would he do the same if we were sensitive to each other?  I find nothing beautiful Eden, about a man/woman who keep putting each other down.  And this has nothing to do with you Eden, or any other.  But, love does not hurt.  In love there is no hurt.  I do not associate aggresivity with being feminine, nor does the feminine tolerate being abused.  It's a fine balance!  But, I must say I love your honesty and appreciate it very much and please, I'm not judging you or any other.  Not at all, but simply saying how I see, feel, live...

Good night, Eden.  Sending you and your's much love.

Good day pearl.  How are ya.  There are a few things that I would like to share in regards to your post above.  Clearly I see the difference between two whole people entering into a relationship out of wholeness, than two people entering into a relationship out of neediness or lack or insufficiency of some sort. We have known each other for how long, you and I? ;-)

When a mature and totally 'whole' woman is fiery, highly sensitive, and emotionally responsive to a man's momentary(or repetitive) lack of integrity, or his inability to rise to meet a challenge, etc it is a kind of response that is just a momentary disgust or sense of danger, rather than some kind of "hurt" or "aggressiveness".  To suggest that there would never be such an intense situation in a healthy relationship is to speculate and it is not my experience at all.  I used to see relationship exactly the way you do.  The thing is pearl, when we are truly open to life, it is always pushing our limits and creating disturbances and a man is not going to meet every challenge perfectly...depending how open the feminine partner is to her man's masculine presence and direction, her response will be of equal intensity.

You assume that a woman's fiery and intense response is a lack of communication, when in fact 5 seconds of anger can say far more than a 20 minute discussion.  It is actually an incredibly efficient way to communicate as the feminine partners body is wide open, utterly sensitive, and thus instantly and intensely communicates her man's state of health moment by moment.  It's the most challenging path of all, and few men can handle it. It takes incredible alertness to be with such a woman, and she has no tolerance for a man who is not 'at least' her equal in all ways.

What woman would depend on a man who is less trustworthy or alert or intense(as you say) than herself?  Like attracts like.  Being with a whole, healthy, vibrant woman who is growing stronger by the day is not an easy challenge, yet it is the most rich and incredible and nourishing place to be....and indeed it is filled with the wonder and ecstasy and the love that you so clearly shared above.

Absolutely fascinating and insightful post the two of you. Thank you both for sharing, I enjoyed it immensely.

I resonate more to Pearls loving, open communication approach to relationships, but can see Edens point too, about the women challenging the man to grow.

So Eden it seems like you are in a relationship with a woman who is equal to you, if not superior. And she forces you to grow all the time, to keep up with her and to stay in the relationship. If I am understanding this correctly, without you constantly growing and meeting her challenges, she will move on to another who is more worthy of her time?

Certain animals mate for life in the wild and others immediately leave their mates after mating. I wonder where your kind of relationship falls into the mix.

Nice hearing from you pearl.

pearl wrote:

Interesting, Eden, can two people chose to enter into a relationship at all, or it is something that just takes place in every moment anew wthout a choice.

Of course, I would never suggest that anything is life is a 'choice'. 

pearl wrote:

Yes, I understand where you're coming from, but if you don't mind me saying so, why would a woman who is complete and total ever remain in a rleationship with a man who lacks integrity therefore inevitably provokes in her a sense of danger every now and then? Not saying she should not, but speaking for myself I would not stay around such a male for a single another moment unless ofocurse I am attached to him, or dependent on him, or seeking something or the other.

I see, so you would suggest that a man can be perfect, never lacking integrity for a single moment, never a moment of dullness, never for a second giving life to an old pattern.  Sounds like a perfect specimen ;-)  Such a man will obviously hold you to the same standard of perfection. 

pearl wrote:

I know what you are talking about.  The emotional responses, the yellinng, the sense of danger arises when and where any sort of attachment takes place, the result of attachment,"I own you", "you are mine" sorta thing.

That's obviously not what I am talking about at all, so clearly you don't "know what I am talking about", which is perfectly cool with me.

pearl wrote:

What you call disturbances is but a result of attachment in a relationship between a man and a woman, and not love.  In love there are no disturbances, no possessions nor attachments and so no psychological challenges either, and no nobody whom to hurt, or who can be hurt.  It is entirely something else when you love, or rather when you are love, or when there is love.  If you dig deeply you also may see this as I did years ago.  And I'd say if may say so when you are truly open to life there are no limits to be pushed, no boundaries to overcome.  Nothing more to become.

No disturbances?  No challenges?  That's great if you have reached a place where there is no more learning, no more growth, no challenge.  I am still discovering old subtle patterns that still exist deep within the cells, and life is always full of challenges and newness.   

pearl wrote:

The man and woman is only communicating their respective states of health, their fears at any given moment in the sense I am not a barrometer of someone's integrity, nor is he a barrometer of my integrity...if it were so, it would only reveal their dependent nature on one another.

Not at all.  The dance of relationship reveals things that could be revealed no other way. Relationship can open one's heart in ways that nothing else can. With that said, one can be perfectly whole without one. One can live one's whole life without going to the ocean or the mountains too.

pearl wrote:

If she is really that alert she would be totally indepedent in the sense not dependent on any one for her well being, seeking nothing form no one, and so no roller coaster rides, no psychological challenges, emotional uphealvels...and that is love.  Then she is love.

Of course, that is already there from the very beginning....such a woman has already mastered her emotions, her mind, she is free of the network of thought, she inhabits the body fully....now she is free to dance and play with emotions...she is free to play the feminine, or the masculine, or neither. In the play of the feminine/masculine there is the play of dependence...she yields...she receives...she opens....she dances...she rises and falls...she explodes....she curls up.....she dances....she hides....she rages....she smiles.  For some this play opens the heart in ways nothing else can. She is free to step out at anytime. 

pearl wrote:

Why would any passionate, alert, lively woman depend on any man for that matter, and for what?  Not saying she cannot share her love, affections with people, but why depend on anyone?  Where there is dependency of any sort there is no love.

To depend upon the universal man is to depend upon life itself...he is love. To depend upon such a man is to only depend upon love, god, life. For a woman with a feminine essence, nothing is more heavenly...nothing nurtures her body and opens her heart more than to yield to the masculine. 

pearl wrote:

Infact, attraction is transient and fades quickly.

Many animals mate for life.  That is the attraction I am speaking of.  It is the same as the attraction between mother and child.  Don't get stuck on the word if you can, and instead hear what I am saying ;-)

pearl wrote:

Why do you say it is not easy?  Not that it should be.  But saying it is not easy indicates to friction and friction wears out, kills the spark, the constant having to put up...the emotional ups and downs are not in my understanding a basis of healthy relationship.

Wonderful to hear that, Eden.  I wish you nothing but the best, that your love grows stronger, deeper by the day, without limits, and challenges to overcome...

If challenges were 'easy' they wouldn't be challenges. A challenge is not the same as friction, or limits.

Emotional ups and downs are not the foundation...yet one is now free to play with emotions and to allow them to opens one's heart and body like a flower.  Nothing gives a man more joy than to see a woman's capacity to feel and open grow in his presence.

Last edited by Eden (2011-11-28 19:04:12)